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 Cantate Domino and Implicit Desire 
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New post Cantate Domino and Implicit Desire
Monsignor Fenton:

Quote:
It is Catholic doctrine now, and it was Catholic doctrine when the Cantate Domino was written, that a man who is in the Church in the sense that he sincerely, even though only implicitly, desires to live within it, is in a position to be saved if he should die before he is able to attain membership in the Church.


I accept this without question, but does anyone have supporting documentation that shows implicit desire was taught as a doctrine of the Church at the time of Cantate Domino?

Thank you very much.

Here was my response to the questioner which is welcomed to be critiqued:

The quote you refer to is directly from Monsignor Fenton, who read and understood all the Church taught on the topic in their original language. Since he was one of the greatest traditional Catholics of the 20th century I believe we can take his word for it. The answer isn't intended to be terse in a disrespectful way, but is spoken by a man who lacks the theological qualifications, that Monsignor Fenton had in abundance, to speak authoritatively to the issue.

Quote:
What I believe it comes down to, and you can take this with a grain of salt, is that God does not damn anyone for any actual sin they are not culpable of. He allows for perfect contrition when Confession is impossible, and Baptism of Desire when Baptism is not possible. He allows one to die in a state of sanctifying grace, within the Church, so long as he has a supernatural Faith based upon Divine revelation and a perfect charity. Now one can have a supernatural Faith and perfect charity apart from an explicit desire to join the Church. But such is impossible apart from at least an implicit desire. This is only obtained by one who is truly of good will and loves God with the love of charity preferring His will above everything else. Such a man would explicitly desire to be a member of the Church if he realized such a desire was necessary. Much as Baptism of (the Holy Ghost) desire can be applied to those who are aware of sacramental baptisms necessity but are prevented through no fault of their own, as well as those who are not aware of its necessity, through no fault of their own, but would get baptized quite readily as soon as they became aware of the necessity. And not having this desire must not be due to any fault of his own. Circumstance must be such that explicit desire, in the eyes of God, cannot be reasonably expected from him.


Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:42 pm
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New post Re: Cantate Domino and Implicit Desire
I think most people need to understand the difference between the Catholic point of view of BOD/BOB and the un-Catholic point of view.

The erroneous teaching of BOD/BOB, is the belief that an implicit desire (any inkling towards the supernatural) is sufficient for salvation. Even the protocol of Fr. Feeney says clearly it has to be supernatural faith animated by perfect charity. St. Thomas talks about, "faith that worketh by charity." Now a true supernatural faith has to be explicit, so desire can only work within Catechumens, or catechumenate like individuals (they cannot be called catechumens since they were not properly brought to the Church as such, but did not have the time to enter). Such as someone who had heard the claims of the Church before, but then he had some unfortunate car accident, he would then at that point have to believe in the most important doctrines of the church. Such as the Trinity, the incarnation and the Catholic Church, also that God is a rewarder/punisher (as opposed to the Protestant point of view of salvation by faith alone). With only those three and a true sincere desire to enter into the Church, animated by perfect charity would be sufficient to constitute a valid case of BOD/BOB. You cannot have a supernatural faith, and not have faith in Jesus Christ. So this would automatically not include Jews, Muslims, Hinduhs etc... They must believe in the most important doctrines, this is a must (the ones outlined above). This is what the Doctor's of the Church held, and the Church defended. Now the more recent theological speculations on the matter, are not contained within magisterial teaching, but they are just a speculation. How many are those who have fought vehemently against the Church whenever they delve into these difficult matters, take the Jansenist for example who were staunch Augustinians with respect to grace/predestination.

+Lefebvre and company, did err on this matter, but he is not a heretic for holding his view of BOD/BOB. The way it is commonly understood by most does not not lead to universal salvation, despite whatever dishonest feeneyites might say. For many in the SSPX/indult and most SV's, hold pretty much that if you jump out of a plane without a parachute, it is possible for you to be saved, but that this happens rarely if ever. It is not the correct view, but it is not explicitly condemned. Now someone who hold's this view is more likely to believe in the Vatican II and its apostasy.

Stick to the safe opinion, and that is what we should do when you are presented with novel teachings.

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Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:06 pm
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New post Re: Cantate Domino and Implicit Desire
Thank you very much for the thoughtful response. My concern mainly is that Monsignor Fenton teaches that it is a Catholic doctrine that one can be saved within the Church even by implicit desire. That part of the equation I believe you are not questioning. That they must have an explicit faith based upon Divine Revelation I do not question. So it seems we are in agreement on the above two issues.

I will add that I doubt Lefebvre got the doctrine wrong. I hope someone qualified to speak on the issue will clarify in case I am wrong about this.

My main question is if their is documentation from the time of Cantate Domino that teaches one can be saved within the Church by implicit desire? Perhaps that particular question is more difficult to respond to than I hoped.


Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:09 pm
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New post Re: Cantate Domino and Implicit Desire
Mario Looch wrote:
Thank you very much for the thoughtful response. My concern mainly is that Monsignor Fenton teaches that it is a Catholic doctrine that one can be saved within the Church even by implicit desire. That part of the equation I believe you are not questioning. That they must have an explicit faith based upon Divine Revelation I do not question. So it seems we are in agreement on the above two issues.

I will add that I doubt Lefebvre got the doctrine wrong. I hope someone qualified to speak on the issue will clarify in case I am wrong about this.

My main question is if their is documentation from the time of Cantate Domino that teaches one can be saved within the Church by implicit desire? Perhaps that particular question is more difficult to respond to than I hoped.


Cantate Domino is pretty explicit,
Quote:
unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock


Fenton was wrong, I am sorry if that is what he is suggesting it is contrary to what the protocol condemning Father Feeney teaches. Implicit desire = supernatural faith, which can only be animated by real faith in Jesus Christ. This is why it is IMPOSSIBLE for any infidel (that is those that are not baptized) to be saved. St. Thomas and other's clearly differentiate them, if they are not guilty for not knowing the Church, this sin will not be imputed to them. However, the most they can ever reach is limbo, but never salvation. You don't have to be a theologian in order to be a Catholic, simple.

1) Believe in the Trinity.
2) Incarnation
3) God is a rewarder/punisher
4) Desire to enter into the bosom of the Church.
5) Animated by perfect charity

It really is simple, go back to the first day of catechism class.

What is our purpose in life?

1) To know
2) To Love
3) To Serve
God...

Now in order to Love Him, you need to know Him, and in order to serve Him, you need to Love Him.

Without any knowledge in WHO you desire to enter into union, it really can't be called BOD. NONE of the Father's or any Saint ever taught such a BOD, ever... We are of course excluding the Universal salvationist Origen, who was seriously mistaken on this issue for he held that even the devil one day would be saved. However, we must take into consideration that he put forth all of his opinions under the feet of Holy Mother Church. This is why he was never a heretic, for the Church was still underground.

This is the sort of dishonesty, that many Feeneyites see in those who hold the implicit BOD, "inkling towards God." Or the more known modernist immanentism, which St. Pius X condemned. Remember Cantate Domino says very clearly, UNLESS they join the this body before the end of their lives. This is the key clause here, without it none of it makes sense. We are assuming that if any Hinduh dies, he must a die a Catholic. Now for a baptized apostate/heretic, all they need to have is what even the Feeneyites agree is a perfect act of contrition in order to enter heaven. You cannot have a valid act of contrition, without the explicit renunciations in the intellect of your heresies. All that is needed is a desire to believe as the Church believes even if you are not fully aware of everything that the Church teaches. In many cases it is possible that God might illumine their minds, this has happened many times. Think of some of the miraculous conversion of the Miraculous medal, where some super anti-theist militant's instantly converted in an instant. Knowing every single objection they have answered... Such is the power of God, He can do all things. Despite whatever Bergoglio thinks.

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Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:06 am
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New post Re: Cantate Domino and Implicit Desire
I don't think you can say Fenton is wrong as he taught the precise opposite of implicit desire = faith.

Quote:
Incidentally, on this point, there have been Catholic writers who have been led astray by an incomplete translation of this portion of the Singulari Quadam. The allocution says that people who are invincibly ignorant of the true religion "will never be charged with any guilt on this account before the eyes of the Lord." The Latin text reads ". . . qui verae religionis ignorantiam laborent, si ea sit invincibilis, nulla ipsos obstringi huiusce rei culpa ante oculos Domini." Some persons have attempted a translation of this passage which takes no account of the words "huiusce rei." Such translations tend to present invincible ignorance of the true religion as a sort of sacrament, since they make it appear that the Sovereign Pontiff taught that persons invincibly ignorant of the true religion are simply not blameworthy in the eyes of the Lord.


So if you claim Fenton errs you will have to give a reason other than his "teaching implicit desire = faith".

BTW does anyone reading this thread know whether Bishop Lefebvre "erred" on this doctrine?


Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:59 am
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