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 St. Alphonsus on denouncing heretical family members 
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New post St. Alphonsus on denouncing heretical family members
In the article "The Right to Judge Heresy" by John Daly found in this website, he says the following:

2.St Alphonsus Liguori treats the duty of denouncing heretics even among the members of one's own family. He declares that this duty obliges without exception, but only when the miscreant is truly and formally a heretic and not only suspected or erring in good faith. This distinction, presented in a clear and detailed manner, would be perfectly otiose if individuals were unable to recognise heretics before the authorities had intervened. So St Alphonsus clearly presumes that individuals can at times distinguish suspicion of heresy from certainty and can recognise the presence or absence of pertinacity. (Theologia Moralis, lib. 5, n. 250)

I found a pre-Vatican 2 pdf of the Theologia Moralis in either italian or latin, can't really remember, but I do remember that I couldn't find any n. 250 in book 5 of it, so I couldn't find the actual passage.

Since I don't know either Latin or Italian, maybe I missed it and didn't even notice, but my plan was to find at least n. 250 in book 5 and then translate that, but I couldn't.

I'd really like to see the actual passage where he says that.

Does anybody have it?

Thanks.


Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:58 am
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New post Re: St. Alphonsus on denouncing heretical family members
Iugiter wrote:
In the article "The Right to Judge Heresy" by John Daly found in this website, he says the following:

2.St Alphonsus Liguori treats the duty of denouncing heretics even among the members of one's own family. He declares that this duty obliges without exception, but only when the miscreant is truly and formally a heretic and not only suspected or erring in good faith. This distinction, presented in a clear and detailed manner, would be perfectly otiose if individuals were unable to recognise heretics before the authorities had intervened. So St Alphonsus clearly presumes that individuals can at times distinguish suspicion of heresy from certainty and can recognise the presence or absence of pertinacity. (Theologia Moralis, lib. 5, n. 250)

I found a pre-Vatican 2 pdf of the Theologia Moralis in either italian or latin, can't really remember, but I do remember that I couldn't find any n. 250 in book 5 of it, so I couldn't find the actual passage.

Since I don't know either Latin or Italian, maybe I missed it and didn't even notice, but my plan was to find at least n. 250 in book 5 and then translate that, but I couldn't.

I'd really like to see the actual passage where he says that.

Does anybody have it?

Thanks.


Book 5, no. 250 is here: http://archive.org/stream/theologiamora ... 2/mode/2up

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Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:58 am
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New post Re: St. Alphonsus on denouncing heretical family members
Well found, Mike, and thank you.

My Latin's lousy, but that is clear, as JS Daly has said. The only discussion is whether children are obliged to denounce their own parents, or whether they might perhaps be excused, and many authorities are cited in favour of excusability.

I don't think Daly's over-all point is really disputable. The notion that there are no heretics absent an ecclesiastical judgement is a modern novelty. It collides with the history of the Patristic period so often and so directly that it is a wonder that anybody who has read anything gives it any credence.

As I have many times pointed out, the man who gives serious cause for suspicion of heresy has acted and/or spoken in ways that caused the suspicion. In Christian charity we give him the benefict of the doubt, but he himself is responsible for his situation. Roncalli created grave suspicion about his own orthodoxy during the reign of Pius X. He pulled his head in, and lied blatantly about his reading habits and his true views. He survived, but with a dossier at the Holy Office. He could have acted entirely differently. He could have admitted his fault, severed relations with his heretical buddies, and put his efforts into serious study of the reasons that Modernism had been condemned, and proven himself, firstly, sincere, and then over time, truly orthodox. He chose instead to act as a shifty fox, and carried the suspicion for the rest of his life. What injustice was there in this? None, obviously, yet the Modernists and their sympathisers constantly whined about the sorrows of the Roncallis of the world who had to carry about a stain on their orthodoxy when nothing had been proven. Roncalli himself held a grudge against the Holy Office for keeping a dossier on him, revealing what a petty, self-centred, man he truly was, unable to maintain the common good against the value of a good name that in truth he didn't deserve. It's a measure of the anti-intellectual liberalism of our day that this argument even has to be put.

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Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:02 pm
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New post Re: St. Alphonsus on denouncing heretical family members
Thanks Mike.

That's one of the main arguments of the anti-SV's: you cannot know with the certainty of faith whether this or that person is a heretic or not until the Church pronounces judgment.


Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:02 pm
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New post Re: St. Alphonsus on denouncing heretical family members
Iugiter wrote:
Thanks Mike.

That's one of the main arguments of the anti-SV's: you cannot know with the certainty of faith whether this or that person is a heretic or not until the Church pronounces judgment.


This argument always seemed strange to me. People who say this talk of "The Church" as some sort of autonomous being not composed of individual human beings that somehow pronounces a judgment of heretic upon people out of thin air. They do not consider that real people have to first conclude that an individual is a heretic in order to the Church to initiate an investigation and make a judgment. And the same people who talk like this are absolutely willing to denounce someone as a heretic and not to be trusted--unless he claims the papacy--while, at the same time, accepting the "heretic" as a member of the Church in good standing and completely entitled to maintain their office in the Church.

It really doesn't make any sense to me.


Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:40 pm
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New post Re: St. Alphonsus on denouncing heretical family members
TKGS wrote:
Iugiter wrote:
Thanks Mike.

That's one of the main arguments of the anti-SV's: you cannot know with the certainty of faith whether this or that person is a heretic or not until the Church pronounces judgment.


This argument always seemed strange to me. People who say this talk of "The Church" as some sort of autonomous being not composed of individual human beings that somehow pronounces a judgment of heretic upon people out of thin air. They do not consider that real people have to first conclude that an individual is a heretic in order to the Church to initiate an investigation and make a judgment. And the same people who talk like this are absolutely willing to denounce someone as a heretic and not to be trusted--unless he claims the papacy--while, at the same time, accepting the "heretic" as a member of the Church in good standing and completely entitled to maintain their office in the Church.

It really doesn't make any sense to me.


That's because it's false and nonsense.

While they say that nobody can know if any of the hierarchs in the novus ordo are heretics or not, they constantly call them all "modernists" which makes them worse than heretics.

They would also have to explain why they avoid the novus ordo to begin with if nobody can determine what heresy or error is?

Their position is riddled with hypocrisy all the way through.


Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:05 pm
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New post Re: St. Alphonsus on denouncing heretical family members
Yes, Alan has given an excellent proof as to why modernism is the worst heresy out there. What is incredible is that they will continually call all the Vatican II Bishop's modernist's, its as if the label modernist has lost its original meaning.

Ohh what you are a modernist? Don't worry about it, it has no negative effects on the soul or membership in the Church. If you call everyone and their puppies a modernist, its meaningless. This is why it leads to such egregious errors to separate the men and the magisterial pronouncements. It is a semi-Protestant method of exegesis, you also see this within the Sola Denzingerite approach.

Solution, scholastic Thomism is the best method to get to the truth. It leads to a hierarchy of truth the quickest, it takes away probable arguments and leads to the greatest peace of mind on difficult issues. As St. Pius X was won't to remind the clergy, when he was Patriarch of Venice, to quit giving lofty sermons. He said the faithful want the truth plain and simple, they desire it from their pastors.

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Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:07 am
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