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 Religious Liberty reconciled ? 
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Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 5:19 am
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New post Religious Liberty reconciled ?
This came up on another forum and I wanted to ask about it here. The claim was made that Dignitatus Humanae has been reconciled with the traditional pre-Vatican II teaching and has brought many sedevacantists back into the fold of the conciliar church.

Here is the claim by Mr. Pete Vere:

Quote:
But back to sede apologetics. Most notable (former) sedes in Europe who came over to the then-indult, now-extraordinary form, did so shortly after being convinced that Vatican II's understanding of religious liberty was reconcilable with Catholic Tradition. The Society of St Vincent Ferrer is one good example. L'Abbe Bernard Lucien is another one.

So yes, it comes down to this one work authored by Dom Basile Valuet, a traditional Benedictine ordained personally by Mgr Lefebvre. The great irony is that he originally set out to write his doctoral thesis from the R&R position of attempting to prove a rupture between Vatican II definition of religious liberty and Apostolic Tradition.


And this is the book he is talking about:

http://www.amazon.fr/Liberte-Religieuse ... 481&sr=1-4



Is anyone here familiar with this work ? What the central argument Dom Basile has made to reconcile the two apparently divergent teachings ?

Unfortunately I slept through French class in high school so I can't read a word of French, but perhaps someone here is familiar with this work and could comment on it.


Thanks,

Luke


Sat May 31, 2014 3:47 pm
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Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:57 am
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Location: Indiana, USA
New post Re: Religious Liberty reconciled ?
Wow! 6 volumes and 180 Euros. I think it will take a lot more than familiarity to explain this work.

I would bet that it is a typical post-Vatican II document: A lot of words, ending with a claim that a thesis that was never clearly described is proved, but, ultimately, doesn't really say anything.

The Church Crucified won't be two volumes, let alone six, and it's thesis from the original Four Marks series of articles was pretty clear and clearly demonstrated to be true!


Sat May 31, 2014 9:30 pm
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:14 pm
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New post Re: Religious Liberty reconciled ?
Mr. Michael Rodriguez from El Paso, a Novus Ordo "priest" and I might add he might be a deacon but I am not sure about that, particularly he was made a deacon by Wojtyla (now I don't want to hihack your thread). Is the new rite of deacons valid? Especially if it is done by a valid Bishop? I haven't read anything against it, mostly because it will matter little if you have invalid Bishop's and priest's who will care about the deacons? He is the one that spoke to me about that particular Benedictine priest, and even he completely disagreed with him. He also made a note, of how ridiculous it is to write 6 Volumes in order to reconcile it with tradition. This was part of the reason that I was so attracted to him, he is an authentically Holy man and preaches with fervor. He also doesn't buy the whole "continuity of Vatican II." It has taken him some years to slowly change his stance, but he has become more firm about it. The way I understand it he says when you are asked to reconcile two things, obedience and truth. You choose truth, over obedience in every case. So its very much a resistance position (the only logical position) if you are to recognize these men as having the keys of St. Peter.

Yes you know that something is wrong when you have to prove a few sentences of Dignitates Humanae is reconcilable with tradition, in 6 Volumes. Essentially from what I have heard (would love to read it if someone can scan it and translate it in either spanish, or english or esperanto), it is 6 Volumes of gobbledygook theology mixed with traditional language.

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Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:47 pm
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Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:57 am
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Location: Indiana, USA
New post Re: Religious Liberty reconciled ?
Even in the Novus Ordo I don't think you can be both a "priest" and a "deacon". He must be one or the other.

But the Conciliar sect allows deacons to marry after ordination. I read a story from a Conciliar periodical about a deacon who received a Novus Ordo marriage annulment and then married his girl friend. Very scandalous.

So this man is "authentically Holy"? He values "truth" over "obedience"? But he is still in the Conciliar sect?

Well, he may be on his way to becoming holy and he hasn't reasoned out what Truth is. At least not yet. He needs prayers.


Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:58 pm
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:14 pm
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New post Re: Religious Liberty reconciled ?
TKGS wrote:
Even in the Novus Ordo I don't think you can be both a "priest" and a "deacon". He must be one or the other.

But the Conciliar sect allows deacons to marry after ordination. I read a story from a Conciliar periodical about a deacon who received a Novus Ordo marriage annulment and then married his girl friend. Very scandalous.

So this man is "authentically Holy"? He values "truth" over "obedience"? But he is still in the Conciliar sect?

Well, he may be on his way to becoming holy and he hasn't reasoned out what Truth is. At least not yet. He needs prayers.


My apologies, I meant to say that I believe the new rite of ordination is completely null and utterly void.

What I had doubts is whether the new rites for Deacons are valid, and from what I have studied, there is not even a doubt in my mind that they truly are. I finally resolved this issue in my mind, something that I had off put for a long time, what happens in the case when you have a valid Bishop, that uses the new rite of deacons. So my issue was whether he would be a valid deacon, this sort of hypothetical case is really not an issue anymore now, but there are some individuals that I know have had such a situation. Take Bergoglio for example, ordained in December of 1969 so does that mean he is a valid deacon or subdeacon? When were the actual dates, that the new rites were made mandatory for the Universal Conciliar Church. If anyone has proof that bergoglio did receive any of the minor orders or major orders, please link me up or give me a source. I am really interested merely for academic reasons, as to what the situation is with him in particular.

No in this particular case, he understands the problems of Vatican II and preaches against it publically + frequently. There is no doubt about the holiness of this man for me, his prayer life is solid and it is exactly what has been leading him to tradition. Certainly keep him in your prayers, it is precisely men like this that I know have a true calling, but are stuck in the Conciliar Church.

What is hard is when you have dedicated over 20+ years of your life to what you think is the Catholic Church, but indeed is a whore with her ecumenism... Its a really really hard thing to do personally, this is more then just a theology issue it really means a total life change. All this time you have been simulating the mass for 16 years... Think of how devastating psychologically that is... With many of us these things remain in the theoretical sphere, but for some people who are really deeply involved within the Conciliar structure it is much harder for them to open up their eyes. Even from a practical standpoint, its difficult but we know that those who do leave the Conciliar structure will truly be at peace with God and man. In his particular case he was a brilliant lad, graduated first in his class in high school, had a full ride to MIT (Massachussets Institute of Technology). His dad was a professor here at the University of Texas at El Paso in Electrical Engineering (smart guy), but he decided to join the priesthood. Not really the fault of any of these individuals, that wicked conspirators attempted to rob us of the sacraments...

By the way has anyone found if there is translation of that original book? English or spanish would be fine with me, well I am totally ignorant of French to put it simply.

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Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:56 am
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