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 Canonizations and Heroic virtue 
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New post Canonizations and Heroic virtue
I'm having a discussion on Suscipe Domine, and my adversary argues that the infallible declaration does not include the part about having practiced virtue in a heroic degree; he challenged me to come up with a source that states this; is there any?

"There is no question of heroic virtue in this formula; on the other hand, sanctity does not necessarily imply the exercise of heroic virtue, since one who had not hitherto practised heroic virtue would, by the one transient heroic act in which he yielded up his life for Christ, have justly deserved to be considered a saint. This view seems all the more certain if we reflect that all the arguments of theologians for papal infallibility in the canonization of saints are based on the fact that on such occasions the popes believe and assert that the decision which they publish is infallible (Pesch, Prael. Dogm., I, 552)."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm

Just so you know that is from a Pre Vatican II source, so even a great sinner who died yielding his life up to Christ would justly deservered to be called a Saint, and is talking about canonization.
If they are saved then they are saints and the Church only states infallibly if someone is in heaven, not that they practiced heroic virtue, is there one source that says that the Church is infallible in regards to declaring a persons virtue heroic?
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Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:28 pm
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New post Re: Canonizations and Heroic virtue
Hi Michael,

This might help. It's from Fr. Faber's book on Canonizations on page 31 - ie download from archive.org.


".... For, let it be observed once for all, and borne in mind throughout, the judicious Benedict XIV., in giving reasons why baptized children, though martyrs, should not ordinarily be canonized, says, "beatifications and canonizations are not solemnized only that we may have authorized* intercessors with God, but also that we may imitate the deeds of those so canonized, and no ratio imitandi can be drawn from the case of infants." In the same way Pius VI., when he beatified Andrea Ibernon, a Franciscan lay-brother, in 1791, says in his-- decree, 'It is the duty of Christians to imitate what they venerate ; we therefore think it our duty to hold out to you the Blessed Andrea Ibemon for your veneration, and entreat you to imitate his virtues,"

Read the next couple of pages as well - contains more gems as well.


Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:54 pm
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New post Re: Canonizations and Heroic virtue
Additionally to the above:

From the liturgy for Blessed John Paul II Day - Oct. 22 . ( a most probable template for soon to be canonized Wojtyla)

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... re_en.html

For the "Liturgy of Hours" the following biography was issued:

Quote:
Blessed John Paul II, Pope
....... He became first auxiliary bishop and, in 1964, Archbishop of Krakow and took part in the Second Vatican Council. On 16 October 1978 he was elected pope and took the name John Paul II. His exceptional apostolic zeal, particularly for families, young people, and the sick, led him to numerous pastoral visits throughout the world. Among the many fruits which he has left as a heritage to the Church are above all his rich Magisterium and the promulgation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well as the Code of Canon Law for the Latin Church and for the Eastern Churches. In Rome on 2 April 2005, the eve of the Second Sunday of Easter (or of Divine Mercy), he departed peacefully in the Lord.


Quote:
Oration

O God, who are rich in mercy and who willed that the blessed John Paul the Second should preside as Pope over your universal Church, grant, we pray, that instructed by his teaching, we may open our hearts to the saving grace of Christ, the sole Redeemer of mankind. Who lives and reigns.


Comments: The above oration (from the feast day of "Bl. Wojtyla" on Oct. 22) will soon be extended to the "Universal (NO) Church" through its liturgy - a canonization, so to speak, of Wojtyla's teachings and heroic virtues - as seen indirectly from the biography from the Liturgy of Hours.


Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:30 am
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New post Re: Canonizations and Heroic virtue
Quote:
Oration

O God, who are rich in mercy and who willed that the blessed John Paul the Second should preside as Pope over your universal Church, grant, we pray, that instructed by his teaching, we may open our hearts to the saving grace of Christ, the sole Redeemer of mankind. Who lives and reigns.


Is this prayer actually using the plural form of the being verb to refer to God? I.e., "O God, who are..."

I've never seen this before. Is it a faulty translation or does the original Latin also use a plural form?


Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:57 pm
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New post Re: Canonizations and Heroic virtue
Considering the quote given above from Fr. Faber, your opponent isn't only claiming that the heroic virtue component of a canonization isn't infallible, he's claiming that it's meaningless. It's remarkable how low some will stoop to insist the conciliar Church is the Catholic Church.

Either canonizations are infallible or they aren't. Nothing is accomplished by saying that a given constituent of a canonization is fallible. When the Church canonizes someone, She (certainly, and at the very least) approves their cult for veneration. She approves their addition to the Calendar and to the liturgy and life of the Church in the mass and in the Divine Office. She cannot approve veneration for someone who isn't worthy of it, and She can hardly impose or approve of the universal Church's veneration of such a person.

Keeping in mind that in the case of JPII, we aren't just dealing with a lack of heroic virtue (as Fr. Faber addresses those who are saints but simply have no record of heroic virtue) but a resounding presence of heterodoxy and blasphemy! So your opponent is claiming that not only is heroic virtue unnecessary, not only is it meaningless, but that unrepentant and scandalous"heroic" heterodoxy and blasphemy are not impediments to sainthood. Preposterous!


Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:44 pm
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New post Re: Canonizations and Heroic virtue
Some excellent contributions here. I have some thoughts that might assist as well. I am of the opinion that theological science has only settled this: the fact that the canonised person is in glory is infallibly declared. I think that there is more for the theologians to work through and settle, however, and I'll make one suggestion below.

The main point I want to make is that when the Church orders a person to be venerated who had lived badly for some portion of his life, one fact is always irrefutably clear - that person's repentance. One can see this at a glance in the lives of St. Dismas, St. Paul, St. Mary of Egypt, St. Jerome, St. Augustine, etc. These were all penitents.

The problem with John Paul II is that his sins against the First Commandment were not repented, but rather, the New Church essentially glorifies them by glorifying his person. That's what so offends us, and it's the essential difference between his canonisation and the cases given above. He was not a penitent, on the contrary he - in common with all of the Conciliar "popes" - actually gloried in his sins.

Now, at least one further doctrinal truth seems to me to be able to be settled by theology in this matter, and that is the infallibility of the judgement that the person's life is worthy of imitation. That is, at the very least that imitating this person will not tend to prejudice one's salvation. This is a difficult truth even to formulate, given the necessary distinctions to be made (e.g. not every aspect even of an heroically holy life is going to aid the salvation of every soul who imitates it). But the point seems sufficiently clear in any case - the Church cannot hold up for imitation, as she certainly does when she canonises somebody, a life which was objectively sinful. Insofar as there was sin in such a life, it must be clear that it was repented of. In other words, the penitence must be a part of the public record, as it is with all of the examples above.

The Conciliar church scandalised many in the life of John Paul II. It now seeks to immortalise that scandal, to perpetuate it indefinitely, by publicly glorifying the culprit. The Catholic Church does not behave this way. Never has, never will, because she cannot.

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Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:05 pm
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New post Re: Canonizations and Heroic virtue
Thanks everyone for your help; I would like to post some of these comments on S.D. If anybody would not object.
Also here is the link, so that you can follow the thread, its a pretty contentious topic. http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/inde ... pic=5387.0

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Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:53 pm
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New post Re: Canonizations and Heroic virtue
Feel free to, Michael. Though you may want to omit my name, they don't like me over at SD. :p

In any event, if anyone still dissents after reading this terrific reply by INP, I wouldn't hold out much hope for them being swayed.


Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:57 am
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New post Re: Canonizations and Heroic virtue
Michael, below are further references from Pope Benedict's book (on archive.org) on the necessity of heroic virtue for candidates -sorry if its not exactly what you want. Thank-you for introducing us to the thread on SD. Mith, thanks for INFEPESS's link - I agree if that won't sway them, I'm afraid nothing will.

John, Benedict XIV refers to a theologian, Fr. Andrea Budrioli S.J.,but briefly, on page 66-67 of his book and touches somewhat upon your comments about the canonization of men viz. innocence and penance. Its a bit above my pay-scale, but I believe it infers a higher bar is set for candidates that have been formerly an enemy to God -makes sense. More details are missing but it would be interesting to find this reference to Fr. Budrioli's work.


Book: Benedict XIV on Heroic Virtue

quote from Fr. Faber in preface of book
link from archive.org is here

Quote:
All Christians must lead a virtuous life,
or lose the inheritance which our Lord has
purchased for them in heaven. But those
whom the Vicar of Christ proposes for our
example and admiration must have been
distinguished for their virtues. In them
the theological and cardinal virtues must
have been eminently conspicuous, and
have been exercised in a supernatural degree,
which is called heroic
. This is the
first and indispensable condition of canon-
ization, except in the case of martyrs ; for
in their case the proof of martyrdom is
equivalent to the proof of the virtues in the
case of confessors.



quote from Pope Benedict XIV, Ch. 1

Quote:
The commentators on the canon law teach
that manifold excellence of life is required both
for beatification and canonization
. To this effect
write in cap. Audivimus Joannes Andreas, n. 4.
Ancaran, n. 5. Zabarella, n. 5. and Fagnan, n. 3.
de Reliquiis et venerations Sanctorum, who also
treat of the text, in can. Miramur, dist. 61 ; and
again of that in Can. Quatuor, 12. qu. 2. Theo
logians teach that for beatification and canoniza
-tion virtues are indispensable, but they must be
in the heroic degree. So Scacchus,* and Cas-
tellinuS who tells us that "not all the just
are to be canonized by the Church, but those
who have shone forth with heroic virtues.
"


link for page1 is here

link for page2 is here


Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:55 am
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New post Re: Canonizations and Heroic virtue
Mithrandylan wrote:
Feel free to, Michael. Though you may want to omit my name, they don't like me over at SD. :p

In any event, if anyone still dissents after reading this terrific reply by INP, I wouldn't hold out much hope for them being swayed.


INP's reply is indeed impressive. It would be worthwhile to point those fellows to this article by Fenton: http://www.strobertbellarmine.net/fento ... faith.html The central point of it is precisely how a dogmatic fact enters into the fabric of revelation. Gerard needs to read it and realise how little he knows.

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Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:52 pm
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New post Re: Canonizations and Heroic virtue
Oh, and somebody could point out to Sbyvl36 that he who proves too much proves nothing. The problem posed by Francis is precisely that if we accept him as pope we have vacated the office of all relevance to the Catholic religion. Benedict was a cardboard cut-out pope, as Fr. Cekada so cleverly put it, for display purposes only. But no orthodox Catholic wants even to "display" Francis. He's a walking horror, equisitely embarrassing and ideally would never be mentioned in polite company. He belongs on the cover of the Rolling Stone.

So, "proving" that without Francis we can never have another pope only brings us to a situation in which having a pope means nothing at all good, and a great deal of evil. How unCatholic can a theory get?

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Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:02 pm
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New post Re: Canonizations and Heroic virtue
Here is a post on S.D. On the same thread; see below the quote from "Spirago..":

Vaclav wrote:
Dear INPEFESS,

Thank-you for lifting the final layer of confusion from my eyes.

INPEFESS said:
Quote:
Major: The Church is infallibly holy (i.e. she is unable to impose a prescription upon the faithful of that which is intrinsically harmful to their spiritual well-being) in her solemn, universal, public, historical activity pertaining to faith and morals.


The above reminds me of the following quote from Spirago's method of Christian doctrine; a manual for priests, teachers, and parents - 1901

Quote:
.....By the act of canonization, the veneration of a saint, and so to a certain extent the acknowledgment of the Church's belief in him, is imposed on the faithful, and he is then officially recognized in the Church's offices, as in the Mass and Breviary ; hence if any one not a saint were declared holy, the whole Church would approve an error. Such a supposition is impossible. Pope Benedict XIV declares his own experience in these cases of the assistance of the Holy Spirit in removing insuperable difficulties which beset a process, or, on the other hand, in breaking it off entirely. Finally the Church in its decisions whether of beatification or canonization is dealing with things which have the closest connection with doctrine of faith or morals.


Hence, the Universal Conciliar Church will honour and venerate John Paul II through its liturgy. As Michael Wilson quoted the Vatican website - for JPII's Feast - soon to be extended to the Universal Church:
Quote:
.........

Oration

O God, who are rich in mercy and who willed that the blessed John Paul the Second should preside as Pope over your universal Church, grant, we pray, that instructed by his teaching, we may open our hearts to the saving grace of Christ, the sole Redeemer of mankind. Who lives and reigns.


That would mean the approval error- of JPII's teachings - by the Universal Church i.e. the liturgy of the Universal Church is bidding us to be instructed by his teachings. It is in effect canonizing VII (and its aftermath of false teachings by the post-conciliar "magisterium") and declaring these teachings as infallible!

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Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:48 am
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