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 The Abp. Thuc Excommunications: Orders Invalid? 
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Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:40 am
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New post The Abp. Thuc Excommunications: Orders Invalid?
I finally read Šeper's 1976 decree of the Abp. Thuc excommunications (uses 1917 canons) and Ratzinger's 1983 Notification (still uses 1917 canons, despite the '83 Code being promulgated 25 January 1983). Šeper's decree contains this interesting part:
Quote:
3) Finally, as regards those who have been ordained in this unlawful manner, or who may in the future be ordained by them, whatever about the validity of their orders, the Church does not recognize their ordination nor shall it do so, and she considers them, as regards all legal effects, in the state which each one had beforehand and subject to the above-mentioned penal sanctions until they repent. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary.
After Abp. Thuc requested absolution from the excommunication, Ratzinger wrote virtually the same thing in his 1983 notification:
Quote:
3) Finally, as regards those who have already received ordination in this illicit manner, or who will perhaps receive ordination from them, whatever about the validity of the orders, the Church does not nor shall it recognize their ordination, and as regards all juridical effects, it considers them in the state which each one had previously, and the above-mentioned penal sanctions remain in force until repentance.
Šeper and Ratzinger totally override the concept of validity of the orders. Essentially, they're saying: "Their valid orders are invalid until they repent." Doesn't this completely contradict what it means for a sacrament to be validly administered?

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Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:04 am
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New post Re: The Abp. Thuc Excommunications: Orders Invalid?
No, because they are making only a legal point, not a doctrinal one.

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Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:02 am
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New post Re: The Abp. Thuc Excommunications: Orders Invalid?
John Lane wrote:
No, because they are making only a legal point, not a doctrinal one.
Certainly, they're saying the ordinations were illicit, but when they say "recognize", do they mean "recognize as valid" or "recognize as valid and licit" or something else? And why do they say: "the Church does not recognize their ordination nor shall it do so"?

It's quite confusing to me.

_________________
«The Essence & Topicality of Thomism»: http://ar.gy/5AaP
by Fr. Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.
e-Book: bit.ly/1iDkMAw

Modernism: modernism. us.to
blog: sententiaedeo.blogspot. com
Aristotelian Thomism: scholastic. us.to


Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:41 am
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Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:57 am
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Location: Indiana, USA
New post Re: The Abp. Thuc Excommunications: Orders Invalid?
Alan Aversa wrote:
John Lane wrote:
No, because they are making only a legal point, not a doctrinal one.
Certainly, they're saying the ordinations were illicit, but when they say "recognize", do they mean "recognize as valid" or "recognize as valid and licit" or something else? And why do they say: "the Church does not recognize their ordination nor shall it do so"?

It's quite confusing to me.


Since these people who don't "recognize their ordination" are not the Catholic Church, what does it matter?

Does it matter that the modern Conciliar church doesn't recognize someone's ordination? Would it matter if the Anglicans or Lutherans don't recognize someone's ordination? These Modernists don't even recognize Catholic dogma. Why would we expect them to recognize a Sacrament?


Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:11 pm
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New post Re: The Abp. Thuc Excommunications: Orders Invalid?
TKGS wrote:
Does it matter that the modern Conciliar church doesn't recognize someone's ordination? Would it matter if the Anglicans or Lutherans don't recognize someone's ordination? These Modernists don't even recognize Catholic dogma. Why would we expect them to recognize a Sacrament?

Short, succinct and to the point: absolutely correct. Thank you. Nice to see someone else with some common sense....which isn't so common any more...

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Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:43 pm
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New post Re: The Abp. Thuc Excommunications: Orders Invalid?
Alan Aversa wrote:
John Lane wrote:
No, because they are making only a legal point, not a doctrinal one.
Certainly, they're saying the ordinations were illicit, but when they say "recognize", do they mean "recognize as valid" or "recognize as valid and licit" or something else? And why do they say: "the Church does not recognize their ordination nor shall it do so"?

It's quite confusing to me.


Alan, you're misunderstanding the actual text, I think. It doesn't say that the orders won't be recognised until the culprits repent; it says that the culprits are under canonical penalties until they repent.

TKGS, of course it doesn't matter whether these Modernists recognise the orders of Catholics. I think Alan's point was that this appeared to be yet another example of unorthodox thought on the part of Ratzinger.

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Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:15 pm
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