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 "[non-]enduring validity of" dogmas' "conceptual language" 
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Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:40 am
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
New post "[non-]enduring validity of" dogmas' "conceptual language"
In Pope Gregory XVI's 1832 encyclical Mirari Vos, he quotes his predecessors, saying (my emphasis):
Quote:
"[T]he universal Church is affected by any and every novelty" [St. Celestine, Pope, epistle 21 to Bishop Galliar.] and the admonition of Pope Agatho: "nothing of the things appointed ought to be diminished; nothing changed; nothing added; but they must be preserved both as regards expression and meaning." [St. Agatho, Pope, epistle to the emperor, apud Labb., ed. Mansi, vol. 2, p. 235.]
Yet, Fides et Ratio §96, whose fn. 112 contains a direct quote from Humani Generis §30, says (with [my comments]):
Quote:
"Pius XII addressed in his Encyclical Letter Humani Generis" "the problem of the enduring validity of the conceptual language used in Conciliar definitions." "This is a complex theme to ponder, since one must reckon seriously with the meaning which words assume in different times and cultures. [This is historicism, which he condemned in §87. To avoid this he suggests, in §97, a return to "a philosophy of being {Thomism?} which first of all would enable dogmatic theology to perform its functions appropriately."] [...] We may hope, then, that philosophy will be especially concerned to deepen the understanding of the relationship between conceptual language [sermonem intellectivum] and truth, and to propose ways which will lead to a right understanding of that relationship [viz., the relationship between other philosophies and Thomism, the latter being closest to truth?]."
Yet, implicit in this analysis is that conceptual language can change while maintaining the stability of doctrine and dogma. Is not this what Mirari Vos and Humani Generis condemn?

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Tue May 08, 2012 5:12 am
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Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:31 am
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Location: Moscow, Idaho, U.S.A.
New post Re: "[non-]enduring validity of" dogmas' "conceptual languag
I suspect you are reading more into that than what was meant by Pius XII.

For example, have you read any really good Catholic dogmatic book written, say, in the 16th or 17th centuries?

One good example has been published in PDF format to our website. It is entitled, "A Discovery of the Manifold Corruptions of the Holy Scriptures by the Sectaries of Our Days..." by Fr. Gregory Martin, who was one of the principle translators of the Vulgate into English under Cardinal Allen. This book was published in 1582, and although we have formatted the letters to make it much easier for moderns to read, the language used is still that of 1582, and the real meanings of certain passages in that book can be difficult to "winkle out".

Here is a link to that book: http://www.eclipseofthechurch.com/Libra ... ptions.pdf

If you read that book, you will find yourself having to "translate" some, or perhaps even many, of the ideas expressed in that ancient (to us) English into words which would be more easily understood by moderns, such as yourself.

Another excellent example is the REAL Douay-Rheims bible, not that emasculated version which passes itself off as the Douay-Rheims bible of today, which although dogmatically correct, as far as it goes, has had all the copious footnotes of the original removed.

You can find this REAL Douay-Rheims bible, thanks be to God, on the web. Although we own a copy of a reproduction from the original version of 1500s, it is now available on CD and as a PDF.

Again, reading this bible you will find yourself "translating" (if you can even be certain of the exact meaning of some of the archaic words) it into more modern language. Yet the ideas, the teachings, the doctrine are all there and are all absolutely correct.

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Kenneth G. Gordon


Tue May 08, 2012 8:11 pm
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Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:40 am
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
New post Re: "[non-]enduring validity of" dogmas' "conceptual languag
Ken Gordon wrote:
reading this bible you will find yourself "translating" (if you can even be certain of the exact meaning of some of the archaic words) it into more modern language. Yet the ideas, the teachings, the doctrine are all there and are all absolutely correct.
But I'm talking about defined dogma. It seems Pope Agatho is saying that the expression and the meaning are inextricably linked; therefore, we cannot, without some loss, formulate dogmatic definitions in using new conceptual language.

_________________
«The Essence & Topicality of Thomism»: http://ar.gy/5AaP
by Fr. Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.
e-Book: bit.ly/1iDkMAw

Modernism: modernism. us.to
blog: sententiaedeo.blogspot. com
Aristotelian Thomism: scholastic. us.to


Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:38 pm
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