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 Asian bishop - traditional 
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New post Asian bishop - traditional
Ken, you'll be interested in this.

Yesterday morning after Mass (celebrated by Bishop Fellay) I was chatting with a fellow parishioner whom I have known for around 12 years, about various matters over coffee, and he volunteered a story which was not related to anything we were discussing, but which obviously just popped into his mind at the time.

This fellow (by birth a Singaporean) has traveled extensively in Asia on business, as an agent for various Australian companies which had manufacturing done under contract in several countries. He speaks a raft of Asian languages. He told me that five or six years ago he introduced an Asia-District SSPX priest to a retired bishop in an Asian country in which the government is still effectively persecuting the Church. This bishop is of very advanced age. He told me the name of the country and the name of the bishop, and the diocese of which he had been bishop. This bishop has several priests with him in some kind of community. They offer only the traditional mass. The bishop had two key questions for the SSPX priest. 1. He wanted to know if the SSPX was one of these groups that are "on the fence" or completely traditional. 2. He wanted to know if he could have some sacred chrism from a Fraternity bishop.

Both questions are interesting. The first suggests a man who distrusts Modernists and only wants to associate with those who are separated from them. The second is odd, since any bishop can make chrism, so why ask for it from another bishop? Well, taking chrism from a bishop is a very clear and traditional sign of the unity of communion.

The final element to this story is that the bishop did not want openly to declare any association with the Fraternity, for reasons of security.

Anyway, I give the story as it was told. It's certainly true. I know the man very well who told it. I've omitted all identifying information for obvious reasons.

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Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:18 pm
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
John Lane wrote:
Ken, you'll be interested in this.


Hey wait a minute, why just Ken? :D

:o

This is but a little example we know nothing about many many facts, isnĀ“t it?

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Leon Bloy


Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:54 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
John Lane wrote:
I've omitted all identifying information for obvious reasons.

...for OBVIOUS reasons... :lol:

Yes. This is as I suspected. There have to be others...

Thank you, John.

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Kenneth G. Gordon


Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:44 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
Pax Christi !


Quote:
The final element to this story is that the bishop did not want openly to declare any association with the Fraternity, for reasons of security


Nice this bishop exists, but it another example of a "hierarchy " we do not have access too.

Bishop in the woods err- jungles of Asia.

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Vincent


Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:18 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
Vince, we don't don't access to this bishop, but the people in the city where he is do - including three priests.

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Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:43 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
Pax Christi

Quote:
Vince, we don't don't access to this bishop, but the people in the city where he is do - including three priests.


Indeed, and one could hope he ordains more priests before he pass's to his eternal reward, and those priest's elect a successor.


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Vincent


Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:18 pm
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
Very interesting, John. Thanks for sharing!

God knows how many more bishops like this one there can be behind the bamboo curtain.


Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:53 pm
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
Phillipus Iacobus wrote:
Very interesting, John. Thanks for sharing!

God knows how many more bishops like this one there can be behind the bamboo curtain.

...or behind the old "iron curtain" too for that matter....

I cannot see how some of them haven't kept "their heads down". They have had years of practice at being very, very careful. Some of us may yet have to learn this...if we are given enough time...

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Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:39 pm
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
Ken Gordon wrote:
Phillipus Iacobus wrote:
Very interesting, John. Thanks for sharing!

God knows how many more bishops like this one there can be behind the bamboo curtain.

...or behind the old "iron curtain" too for that matter....

I cannot see how some of them haven't kept "their heads down". They have had years of practice at being very, very careful. Some of us may yet have to learn this...if we are given enough time...


Hi Ken,

To add to that, there are many obscure and remote parts of Africa and South America which most people have very little contact with. There are just so many potential bishops that any project of identifying them would be immense. Even when we find them, it would be another project to speak with them about their Faith to understand if they are still Catholic. My instincts, though, tell me that many of these bishops are Catholic.

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Mike


Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:33 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
This is just hearsay about _one_ bishop who _may_ still be alive, who _may_ be orthodox and have received jurisdiction from before Vatican II.

It is a laughable scenario in apologetical terms. I cant imagine that any Greek Orthodox would be persuaded that this is a serious claim to the preservation of apostolic succession.

Imagine trying to convert one: "your church is false, your bishops dont have apostolic succession because they split from the pope, the pope is a heretic and it appears that all of the bishops are heretics but there has been rumour of a bishop somewhere in Asia who may have apostolic succession but no details are forthcoming. Our church is indefectible."

Such a ridiculous argument would only amuse the Orthodox and confirm them in their schism.


Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:55 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
Gandolfo 1958 wrote:
Such a ridiculous argument would only amuse the Orthodox and confirm them in their schism.

So, who is offering this argument to them? You?

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Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:01 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
Ken Gordon wrote:
So, who is offering this argument to them? You?


Not me, no.

What part of this do you disagree with?

"your church is false, your bishops dont have apostolic succession because they split from the pope, the pope is a heretic and it appears that all of the bishops are heretics but there has been rumour of a bishop somewhere in Asia who may have apostolic succession but no details are forthcoming. Our church is indefectible."


Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:12 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
Gandolfo 1958 wrote:
This is just hearsay about _one_ bishop who _may_ still be alive, who _may_ be orthodox and have received jurisdiction from before Vatican II.

It is a laughable scenario in apologetical terms. I cant imagine that any Greek Orthodox would be persuaded that this is a serious claim to the preservation of apostolic succession.

Imagine trying to convert one: "your church is false, your bishops dont have apostolic succession because they split from the pope, the pope is a heretic and it appears that all of the bishops are heretics but there has been rumour of a bishop somewhere in Asia who may have apostolic succession but no details are forthcoming. Our church is indefectible."

Such a ridiculous argument would only amuse the Orthodox and confirm them in their schism.


Sir,

There are two issues here. No one on this forum, John Lane, Ken, myself or any other is arguing that we prove apostolicity by arguing that there is some bishop in Asia or anywhere else.

Let's separate the issues and talk about this logically.

1. Doctrine: The Church teaches that the successors of the Apostles must exist until the end of the world. This is directly tied in with the teaching on Apostolic Succession and the visibility of the Church. To deny this truth is heresy.

2. Practical consequences of this doctrine today: There must be bishop(s) in the world today who are successors of the Apostles. We do not need to provide proof of their existence to you or anyone. If you are a Catholic, and I am presuming you are, you must believe that they exist, even if at this moment you do not see them.

It is a worthwhile project to try to identify who these members of the hierarchy are. This is what this thread has done. But, do not ever construe that any attempt at identifying the Apostle's successors is needed as proof to defend the Church's doctrine.

Regarding contemporary apologetics, we have dozens of very tough issues to explain as they come up to potential converts. Those who love the truth will see the truth.

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Mike


Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:14 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
Mike, lets bear in mind though what words like catholicity, visibility, apostolicity are usually taken to mean in apologetics: they are _signs_ of the true, clear, global church with clear doctrinal integrity and continuity. In apologetical terms the _reality_ of the church is its strongest argument. But reality here has become rather something theoretical. A worldwide visible church has become something theoretically assumed to exist somewhere, without any pope or clear hierarchy but there is rumour of a bishop in Asia. Can you see the contrast between the catholic church as presented in traditional apologetics and this account? It couldnt be starker.


Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:31 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
Gandolfo 1958 wrote:
Mike, lets bear in mind though what words like catholicity, visibility, apostolicity are usually taken to mean in apologetics: they are _signs_ of the true, clear, global church with clear doctrinal integrity and continuity. In apologetical terms the _reality_ of the church is its strongest argument. But reality here has become rather something theoretical. A worldwide visible church has become something theoretically assumed to exist somewhere, without any pope or clear hierarchy but there is rumour of a bishop in Asia. Can you see the contrast between the catholic church as presented in traditional apologetics and this account? It couldnt be starker.


This complex state of the Church has made our job as faithful Catholic much more difficult in defending and educating those outside the fold about the Church. This goes far beyond the problem we are talking about here.

I agree with you that traditional apologetics was much easier before the crisis. You could easily point to the Catholic Church and all could easily see it. When converts were ready to join the Church, they could walk into a parish and speak to a priest, sent by his bishop, who was sent by the pope, to speak with him, answer questions, and eventually accept him into the Church.

These times are not ordinary. The Church is in a grave crisis. Even in this crisis, the way of more easily resolving it has been missed. The correct procedure for addressing Vatican II and the claimants should have been for the hierarchy to act, call for an imperfect council, depose the imposter claimant, and elect a pope. This ideally should have been done in the 1960's or at the latest, the 70's. Due to immense confusion, this opportunity was missed.

So, what do we have now? We have a hierarchy that is more dispersed and less organized than ever. Many of the remaining members of the hierarchy may still be deceived about the status of Benedict XVI. To organize the hierarchy to recognize the status of Benedict and to call for an imperfect council would in my view need a miracle.

I do take issue with this statement of yours:
Quote:
A worldwide visible church has become something theoretically assumed to exist somewhere, without any pope or clear hierarchy but there is rumour of a bishop in Asia.


The Catholic Church is not assumed to exist, it does exist. It does not have a pope, but it does have a hierarchy. The story of the bishop in Asia is irrelevant to the truths I just stated. As I said above, those who love the truth will see the truth. This is the truth of our situation.

On Holy Saturday, when the Apostles were hidden away from the world, can one say that the Church's hierarchy failed that day to be visible? In our times, the members of the hierarchy are spread out over many continents, and due to the crisis in the Church we do not know at this time who they are and where they are, but we do know they exist.

This may be a test to your faith to believe this, but that is what the challenge of the Faith is. You must believe many truths which you cannot see or verify. We know heaven exists because our faith tells us. We know that Our Lord is present in the blessed Sacrament because our faith tells us. Lastly, we know that the successors of the Apostles will always exist in the world until the end of the world because our faith tells us. All three are part of the Church's teaching, so why are the first two easy to believe, but the latter is so difficult?

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Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:24 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
Gandolfo, I agree, apologetics activity aimed at educated heretics is a nightmare, for the reasons you explain.

Mike, great presentation of the situation. Perfect.

I've accused Fr. Cekada of heresy on Ignis Ardens. http://z10.invisionfree.com/Ignis_Arden ... p=22023183

I'm still reeling from this revelation of what he really thinks.

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Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:28 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
John Lane wrote:
Gandolfo, I agree, apologetics activity aimed at educated heretics is a nightmare, for the reasons you explain.

Mike, great presentation of the situation. Perfect.

I've accused Fr. Cekada of heresy on Ignis Ardens. http://z10.invisionfree.com/Ignis_Arden ... p=22023183

I'm still reeling from this revelation of what he really thinks.


John,

I have been following the discussion. You are not the only one reeling about what he really thinks. It is shocking isn't it? I also noticed that he did not answer many of the clear and direct questions you put to him. The question that I am wondering about, is why will he not answer the questions?

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Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:40 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
Mike wrote:
I also noticed that he did not answer many of the clear and direct questions you put to him. The question that I am wondering about, is why will he not answer the questions?


Perhaps he won't answer because he's hedging, I hope because he is keeping a way open to say "Well, I have never actually and directly said that the Church can have no bishops with ordinary jurisdiction."

Obviously it is a terrible situation for him to be in. A layman accusing him of heresy, in public, and no real escape route. But he's had these ideas for years, according to Cristian, so changing his mind is not going to be easy.

This is what happened to the famous John Gerson, of Paris. The extreme contingent facts of the Great Western Schism led him to unorthodox notions. The danger now, as then, is that these might become popular. Cekada is no Gerson, however, so the danger is less.

"To deceive, if possible, even the Elect" just keeps coming to mind these last few months.

Yes, it's shocking.

This also illustrates why the saints and theologians were always so sensitive to loose statements that touched upon the faith. When somebody tries to warn people to read carefully before they speak or write, and to use the proper terminology, they get upset and think it's pedantry. Poor Monsignor Fenton dealt with this for most of his career. He was constantly being accused of being a nit-picker and harming others' reputations. Yet he showed such extraordinary restraint!

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Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:00 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
In August 1958 Cardinal Thomas Tien, Archbishop of Peking and the first Chinese Cardinal, was seriously injured in an automobile accident in Germany. In case you don't know cars are used as weapons by the international crime syndicate to get rid off people. A few months earlier Canadian Cardinal Macguigan was also struck by a car while walking down the street in Toronto and seriously injured. The years before 1958 were certainly a dangerous time to be a cardinal.

To prove my point about cars and assassination anyone who follows the silver market will remember 2 years ago when ssilver manipulation whistleblower Andrew Maguire was struck by a car in Londan as part of an assasination attempt.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/you-do ... stleblower
"London metals trader Andrew Maguire, who warned an investigator for the
U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission in advance about a gold and
silver market manipulation to be undertaken by traders for JPMorgan
Chase in February and whose whistleblowing was publicized by GATA at
Thursday's CFTC hearing on metals futures trading was injured along with his wife the next day when their car was struck by a hit-and-run driver in the London area."



Anyhow I've read that Cardinal Tien was treated quite deplorably by John XXIII. I'll have to look it up later but I thought I'd add this. Could be he was one of the good guys, hopefully he was able to pass on to the other Chinese Bishops what was taking place in Rome.


Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:26 am
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New post Re: Asian bishop - traditional
Here's a related story. An SSPX priest told me that a remote island about a day (if I can recall correctly) away from Fiji has a small group of trad faithful. Apparently, a Fijan naval officer struck a conversation with the head of a large family. He told him he attended the traditional Mass, and the man responded, "there's the old Mass? We didn't know it still existed. We thought we were the only ones in the world who wanted the old ways."

Emphasis mine.


Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:15 pm
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