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 The Casuist Returns 
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Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:13 am
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New post The Casuist Returns
Throwing Suspicion on Someone Else

Colius has, in a fit of jealousy, murdered a young man, and in order to divert suspicion from himself, has left in the neighborhood of the corpse the hat and knife of his friend Florus, who had been living in enmity with the murdered man. The police discovered these articles and arrested Florus. The latter is finally found guilty and sentenced to death. Then Colius, in troubled conscience, hastens to his confessor, Father Clemens, who absolves him without hesitation, with the remark that no one is obliged to accuse himself. With little faith in this explanation Colius turned to another confessor, Father Severus. This priest refused absolution until Colius would, even with danger to his own life, free by self-accusation the innocent Florus from his unfortunate position. Colius is now perplexed.

Which confessor must be obeyed, and why?

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On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:03 pm
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
Oooo!
Madam Katie's broom is whirling above my head now... obviously a retribution for disturbing the tranquility of her empty Tea Room!

(Duck) I think Colius should go with Severest in this instance because (swish, duck) a crime requires retributrion (swish, duck) otherwise why would God have sent His Son to pay the Penalty for sin? (swish, duck, scurry).

A faint echo from a fleeing humanoid... "I'll be back tomorrow".


Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:31 pm
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
Oldavid wrote:
A faint echo from a fleeing humanoid... "I'll be back tomorrow".


Oh please, a reprieve...besides I've run out of flour and there aint no cookies in the making...

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:21 pm
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
Katie wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
A faint echo from a fleeing humanoid... "I'll be back tomorrow".


Oh please, a reprieve...besides I've run out of flour and there aint no cookies in the making...

Oh well, I'll bring my own. I'll share them, of course, (if anyone's game to try them).


Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:23 pm
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
Can you please tell me where and when Fr Clemens hears confession?


Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:40 am
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
AMWills, thanks for dropping in!

Not planning our murdering anyone now, are we? :roll:

I can see the absolving without hesitation bit is rather enticing. We will also need to find Fr. Clemens in order to churn through all the prospective Protestant converts who find the idea of confession daunting.

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:55 am
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
Katie wrote:
Not planning our murdering anyone now, are we? :roll:


Not in your bar, Katie! But there a couple of other forums, which have tested my resolve to put away the revolver. Like cigarettes, I had to abstain completely for a while. I am just returning to the fray in the most civilised part of town and delighted to find that your new bar has opened where I can drown my sorrows in good Catholic company!

AMW


Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:27 pm
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
AMWills wrote:
Katie wrote:
Not planning our murdering anyone now, are we? :roll:


Not in your bar, Katie! But there a couple of other forums, which have tested my resolve to put away the revolver. Like cigarettes, I had to abstain completely for a while. I am just returning to the fray in the most civilised part of town and delighted to find that your new bar has opened where I can drown my sorrows in good Catholic company!

AMW



Thank you for the compliments! Re the cigarette abstaining... how funny, I only posted just the thing for you a while ago:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=437&start=60

Send me your address quick!

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:35 pm
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
AMWills wrote:
Katie wrote:
Not planning our murdering anyone now, are we? :roll:


Not in your bar, Katie! But there a couple of other forums, which have tested my resolve to put away the revolver. Like cigarettes, I had to abstain completely for a while. I am just returning to the fray in the most civilised part of town and delighted to find that your new bar has opened where I can drown my sorrows in good Catholic company!

AMW

Pleased to make your aquaintance, AMWills!

Aren't you a little afraid, though, that Katie's Bar might not have a "no smoking" policy? You might drown your sorrows and suffocate in tobacco smoke in good Catholic company.


Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:34 am
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
Oldavid wrote:
Pleased to make your aquaintance, AMWills!


Likewise!

Quote:
Aren't you a little afraid, though, that Katie's Bar might not have a "no smoking" policy? You might drown your sorrows and suffocate in tobacco smoke in good Catholic company.


Well, I am hoping Katie is a true traditionalist who wouldn't dream of adopting any non-smoking, modernist policy. Robert Hugh Benson would turn in his grave at the mere thought! I would be happy to die surrounded by Catholic smokers, who are able to enjoy what I am missing and pray the prayers for the dying :-)


Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:18 am
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
AMWills,

Not related to the tobacconists W.D. and H.O. Wills, by any chance? :) And what does Robert Hugh Benson have to do with any of this?

And yes, I am traditionalist in all things, in as far as I know and can be. So passively smoke away!

Katie

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:52 am
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
Fr. Clemens unfortunately doesn't pass muster.

I. In the case of Colius there are present all conditions that establish the strict obligation of restitution. He is guilty of having caused the misfortune of Florus. The remarks of the first confessor that no one is obliged to accuse himself is, in this sense, and especially in application to this case, palpably incorrect. If there is merely question of one’s own punishment, then it is true that no one is obliged to accuse himself. If, on the contrary, self-accusation is the necessary and only adequate means to make good a wrong committed, such as in our case, then it may become a strict obligation.

2. With far more apparent justification it might be said that Colius, by depositing hat and knife of his friend, became merely the occasion (occasio), but not actually the cause (causa efficiens) of the latter’s conviction. Lehmkuhl says (Theol. mor. I. 997):

Si quis positiva fraude in alterum suspicionem (criminis) convertit, videndum est, num illa fraus prudenter movere potuerit, ut alterum pro reo haberent et punirent. Quod si factum est, excitatio suspicionis fuit causa damni efficax: si alii vero temere alterum condemnarunt, solam occasionem damni habemus.

Then he cites the case of a thief who throws some of the stolen coins before the door of another, who finds the same, takes them, and in the subsequent investigation is held and punished as the thief. In this case, the author explains, the real thief’s action is merely the occasio, not the causa efficiens of the resulting conviction. And rightly so, for although I may possess coins that another has stolen, there is no sufficient reason to hold me as the thief. I may have obtained possession of these coins in a perfectly innocent way. How, then, about Colius’s action? He left hat and knife of Florus beside the murdered man. Was the presence of these articles near the corpse sufficient reason for considering Florus to be the perpetrator and to condemn him to death? One may doubt this. The possibility of the true state of facts will not be overlooked by a deliberate judge, because the trick of throwing suspicion upon others is not unusual with criminals, and Florus will certainly have stated that hat and knife had been stolen from him. If it is remembered that Florus had lived in enmity with the murdered man, the presence of these articles might well lead to a verdict of guilty against Florus, without justifying a charge of bias against jury or judge. Colius, while not responsible for the additional motive for suspicion, has nevertheless made use of it intentionally, to divert more surely suspicion from himself; he knew that because of this circumstance his act could more surely draw down upon Florus bad results. He who gives to a sick person a poison that would not kill a healthy person, is guilty of murder nevertheless, if he knew beforehand the fatal effects of the poison, and yet gave it.

Colius could and did know that by leaving hat and knife of a man who had lived at enmity with the murdered man he might easily bring about his conviction. Hence he is all the more the moral cause of it, and is obliged to avert the threatened danger from Florus, even though he must assume it himself. Colius was conscious of this heavy responsibility; for this reason he was not satisfied with the decision of the first confessor. For this reason also it will be relatively easy to induce him to the actual fulfilment of his duty. It not necessary that Colius should give himself up and expose himself to punishment; it suffices if he declares the matter before competent, credible witnesses, and lets them take further action while he puts his own person in safety.

JACOB LINDEN, S.J.

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:42 am
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
Katie wrote:
AMWills,

Not related to the tobacconists W.D. and H.O. Wills, by any chance? :)


Well, my grandfather was H.O. Wills but not the smoking millionaire, or I would be driving a Porshe :-)

Quote:
And what does Robert Hugh Benson have to do with any of this?


He smoked like a chimney and wrote like a saint. I am sure there must be a connection somewhere...


Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:43 am
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
AMWills wrote:
Katie wrote:
AMWills,

Not related to the tobacconists W.D. and H.O. Wills, by any chance? :)


Well, my grandfather was H.O. Wills but not the smoking millionaire, or I would be driving a Porshe :-)


Fancy that! What a shame you weren't willed much more than a name then, eh?

AMWills wrote:
Katie wrote:
And what does Robert Hugh Benson have to do with any of this?


He smoked like a chimney and wrote like a saint. I am sure there must be a connection somewhere...


Oh yes, of course. You're the 2012 version. Chewing nicorette's like a hairdresser and well, we shall see what offerings you will be keyboarding. :D

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:10 am
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
Y' know Wills, Katie told me privately that designer "shades", a flamboyant scarf and a brightest red Porsche are what got her into John's forum. Now, I'm relying on you to be very discrete with this information, don't release it to anyone without the whole 18 digit code word.


Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:51 am
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
Odd, I'll never trust you again.

Image

Image


Btw, those trappings did a lot more than get me into John's forums.

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:26 pm
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
Katie wrote:
Odd, I'll never trust you again.

Btw, those trappings did a lot more than get me into John's forums.

I'll say it did!
It got you a Tea Room, a Bar, Fresh Scones, a Provocateur, a broom... and that's just for starters!


Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:04 pm
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
Katie wrote:
Oh yes, of course. You're the 2012 version. Chewing nicorette's like a hairdresser and well, we shall see what offerings you will be keyboarding. :D


Not I! I wouldn't let a piece of Nicorette pass my tender, filter-tipped tainted lips. It is so bad for one's health. Full of apartame. Must be some sort of violation of the 5th commandment. I'd be looking for a new hairdresser if I were you.


Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:04 pm
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
AMWills wrote:
Not I! I wouldn't let a piece of Nicorette pass my tender, filter-tipped tainted lips. It is so bad for one's health. Full of apartame. Must be some sort of violation of the 5th commandment. I'd be looking for a new hairdresser if I were you.

Heh, heh! Who knows what's in the scones?!


Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:46 pm
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New post Re: The Casuist Returns
AMWills wrote:
Katie wrote:
Oh yes, of course. You're the 2012 version. Chewing nicorette's like a hairdresser and well, we shall see what offerings you will be keyboarding. :D


Not I! I wouldn't let a piece of Nicorette pass my tender, filter-tipped tainted lips. It is so bad for one's health. Full of apartame. Must be some sort of violation of the 5th commandment. I'd be looking for a new hairdresser if I were you.


Er, I am the hairdresser. But not a nicorette chewing one. I was talking about those hairdressers one sees others patronising. You know - chewing, talking, agreeing with everyone and everything all the while checking out their own newest hairstyle in the mirror whilst pretending that the client is the only interest. Old probably does all this whilst shearing his sheep.

_________________
On the last day, when the general examination takes place, there will be no question at all on the text of Aristotle, the aphorisms of Hippocrates, or the paragraphs of Justinian. Charity will be the whole syllabus.

- St. Robert Bellarmine


Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:09 pm
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