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 SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer 
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New post SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
Pax Christi

from NLM:

http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/

Following up on the Tornielli piece regarding a Vatican offer for regualrization to the SSPX on which the NLM reported earlier today, Fr Alain-Marc Nély, second assistant of Bishop Fellay, the superior of the Society of St. Pius X, has confirmed to the Swiss Catholic news agency KIPA (French APIC) that such an offer indeed exists. Here is the relevant part of the KIPA item (see here in German or here in French) in an NLM translation:

Confirmation of the offer, but no indication of the response

Menzingen, 23 June 2008 (Apic) The Vatican has proposed an agreement to the Priestly Society of St. Pius X to end the schism, reported on 23 June 2008 the Italian daily "Il Giornale." Asked Monday by Apic, Father Alain-Marc Nély, second assistant of Bishop Bernard Fellay, the superior of the Society of St. Pius X in Menzingen (canton of Zug), has indeed confirmed the existence of proposals on the part of the Vatican.

Not wanting to go into further details, Fr Nély, however, confirmed that a proposal of an agreement was made at the beginnig of this month. With conditions. The answer will be given by June 28 "God willing", and will then be made public, he said. But the number three of the schismatic fraternity did not want to indicate in what direction the response of Bishop Fellay would go.

KIPA/APIC also reports that another news agency, I.MEDIA, has asked the Holy See for confirmation, which has neither confirmed nor denied the information. A sojourn of Bishop Fellay in Rome a fee weeks ago has, however, been confirmed to I.MEDIA, according to KIPA/APIC.


Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:30 pm
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
Thank you, Vince. The following is an important text in understanding what is happening.

Andrea Tornielli, of il Giornale has posted on his blog (NLM translation - http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com):

Quote:
The countdown has begun for the agreement between the Fraternity St. Pius X founded by French bishop Marcel Lefebvre and the Holy See, as I write on il Giornale today. The Lefebvrians, who asked for the lifting of the excommunication, will have to respond by June 28 to proposals submitted on behalf of Benedict XVI by Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, president of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei. These are five points which have to be signed, and once they have been clarified, the Fraternity will be able to reenter into full communion with Rome. It is a unique opportunity: the Lefebvrians have for a long time demanded the liberalisation of the ancient missal - and Pope Ratzinger with the Motu proprio "Summorum Pontificum cura" has restored full citizenship to pre-conciliar rite - and the "catechesis" which in recent times comes from papal Masses, with the recovery of some traditional elements, is undeniable. The Fraternity must accept the II Vatican Council and the full validity of the post-conciliar liturgical rite (both points were already signed by Monsignor Lefebvre himself in 1988) and as for its canonical structure, it could be framed as a "prelature". It is known, however, that there is internal resistance: this Bishop Bernard Fellay, the superior of the Lefebvrians, will have to try to overcome in the coming days, during the [Fraternity's] general chapter. Now that the old Mass has been liberalized - albeit with many difficulties and cases of blatant disobedience - many traditionalist faithful do not understand why the Fraternity does not make an agreement with Rome returning fully into Catholic communion. Circumstances so favourable in all likelihood will not come again.

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Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:22 pm
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
Dear Vince,

Two weeks ago we had Fr. Pfluger (1st Assistant to Bp. Fellay) deliver a conference here and he had some interesting things to say about relations with "rome" which might put this into context.

As I mentioned in another thread, the sermon of Bp. Fellay at Saint-Nicolas-du-Chardonnet on June 4 in which he refered to Benedict as "perfectly liberal" and his Letter #72 of mid-April (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=784) made Benedict "very angry." Hoyos called him to Rome and lambasted him. Fr. Pfluger conveyed this data to us with some gusto and humour.

Having spoken with Fr. Pfluger about the whole situation I find it unlikely that he would be in favour of any deal. I am not suggesting that he said anything specific along those lines, but rather that he was clearly directly in line with Letter #72. In fact, I suspect him of writing it - I intended to ask him if he did and forgot to do so. Anybody who sincerely agrees with Letter #72 is against a deal - that much is surely beyond question.

In any case, the general drift of relations this year has been of "rome" making more and more desperate overtures and Bishop Fellay and co. stiffening up. I would say that from Christmas last year things have deteriorated consistently and dramatically. If this is so, the latest from "rome" is a desperation move, designed to produce an enormous ferment amongst the priests and faithful and place the SSPX leadership under intense pressure, whilst adding a threat to the previous sweet overtures. The Il Giornale piece and the associated blog post make it clear that this latest move is a "now or never" offer.

The word is that there is an ultimatum: either Bp. Fellay signs or there is a new excommunication or confirmation of the existing one.

Certainly we should all pray for this storm to be weathered without loss, but for my mind this is good news. "Rome" wants a showdown and this is a sign of weakness. Weakness conscious of the fact that it has made its best moves, so that from here on its remaining strength can only decline. God is good.

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Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:29 pm
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
It would be incredibly bizarre timing for a deal given the recent bust up the SSPX have had with the Transalpine Redemptorists.

I think the SSPX will say thanks but no thanks. "It's now or never" is not much of a threat given that newchurch is experiencing the same death grip as Elvis Presley was in the 1970s. Out of its mind, very sick and dressed in gaudy outfits.


Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:43 pm
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
Pax Christi !

Dear John,

Quote:
The Fraternity must accept the II Vatican Council and the full validity of the post-conciliar liturgical rite (both points were already signed by Monsignor Lefebvre himself in 1988)


Had Archbishop Lefebvre accepted the new Mass as valid? And did he also accept the new rite of Episcopal consecration?
In Xto,
Vincent


Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:00 am
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
Vince Sheridan wrote:
Pax Christi !

Dear John,

Quote:
The Fraternity must accept the II Vatican Council and the full validity of the post-conciliar liturgical rite (both points were already signed by Monsignor Lefebvre himself in 1988)


Had Archbishop Lefebvre accepted the new Mass as valid? And did he also accept the new rite of Episcopal consecration?
In Xto,
Vincent


I always thought the Archbishop considered the new mass as "valid but evil." As far as the new rite of consecration, according to Fr. Cekada, it seemed to have deviated based on negations with 'rome'. Fr. Cekada says that the Archbishop personally told him that the new rite of consecration was invalid, but he later changed his position when dealing with "rome." (I gathered this from different articles written by Fr. Cekada).


Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:32 am
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
At Sunday's sermon, we were told of the call to Rome and the issue of an ultimatum. Bishop Fellay is reported to be completely steadfast, and there were reassurances that the 20-year campaign by enemies of SSPX to suggest that SSPX is making a deal (not the priest's words, mine) continue to be false. The nature of the ultimatum was left unsaid, perhaps because everybody(except me) already knows.

It is good to read John's upbeat take on things. The priest was upbeat about it, also, and refreshed by his conversation with the Bishop.


Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:13 am
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
I do not understand how Fellay can deign to ask a "favor" from the Vatican bureaucracy, without conditions imposed by the Vatican. If you want a license you at least pay the fee; in this case recognize that the Vats can do and say and ask anything that they darn well please! If you can't take it go fly a kite or join Milingo. Quid pro Quo is alive and well.

Fellay's constant dealings with the Vat seems to be utterly absurd.


Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:51 am
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
csibf wrote:
Fellay's constant dealings with the Vat seems to be utterly absurd.


Yes, of course, but this is in the eye of the beholder.

Bishop Fellay is not asking any favours. He is happily maintaining tradition, awaiting the divinely-ordained solution to the crisis. The Vatican is seeking something and he is responding. If the Vatican didn't call, he would not go.

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Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:45 am
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
What are the possible ramifications of a reunion, should it occur? Obviously one is that they adopt the V2 church and all its decadence and thus we possibly lose a great deal of valid Catholic priests and a good bishop. This I definitely don't see happening, but who knows what could happen?

Is there any likelihood to the reverse happening? Could the SSPX stand firm in not accepting any heretical teaching and be allowed to function as an order and ordain their own priests and consecrate their own bishops according to the Old Rite?

plus, I can't imagine all of the SSPX priests joining in the reunion. Would they continue as they are in the original SSPX, setting up (in the eye of the Vatican anyways) a sort of situation like the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches and the Eastern Orthodox where there are identical rites, one Catholic and one not?

Or would they become independent priests or become Sedevacantist and look to join either the CMRI or SSPV?

Or likely a combination of the above?


Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:12 am
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
Pax Christi !


This appears to be the conditions set by Rome;and yes, Rome is pushing for the end of the month.

Conditions resulting from the 4 June 2008 meeting between Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos and Bishop Bernard Fellay:

1) The commitment to a proportionate response to the generosity of the Pope.
2) The commitment to avoid any public intervention that does not respect the person of the Holy Father and that could be negative for ecclesial charity.
3) The commitment to avoid the claim of a magisterium superior to the Holy Father and not to propose the fraternity as opposed to the Church.
4) The commitment to demonstrate the will to act honestly in full ecclesial charity and respect of the Vicar of Christ.
5) The commitment to respect the date - set at the end of the month of June - to respond positively. This will be a condition required and necessary as immediate preparation for the adhesion to have full communion ("come preparazione immediata all’adesione per avere la piena comunione").


Given these conditions, lets pray the SSPX remembers Benedicts 1st homily as " pope"

Benedict XVI said, “Therefore, in preparing myself also for the service that is proper to the Successor of Peter, I wish to affirm strongly my determination to continue the commitment to implement the Second Vatican Council ...”

In Xto,
Vincent


Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:06 pm
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
The problem that I see is that Ratzinger and Modernist rome makes the SSPX look worse and worse with each possible "deal". This effects both the novus ordo'ites and also those in the SSPX - everyone who does not understand the whole picture of the Catholic Faith.

The manner of these "deals" and the fact that this has gone on for many many years without rome being able to resolve it probably indicates much concerning rome's intentions. As Holy Scripture says "by their fruits you will know them."

Ratzinger is using the public forum to make the SSPX look bad - it is that simple. This will cause pressure both inside and outside of the SSPX which could cause it harm. More and more groups like GSI fall by the wayside and eat away at the SSPX's support base.

Perhaps all Traditional Catholics including sedevacantists should have their own meeting and unite and stand as One. This would show the world that it is not just one or two splinter groups opposing rome but a unified front of all Traditional Catholics.


Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:31 pm
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
Quote:
Perhaps all Traditional Catholics including sedevacantists should have their own meeting and unite and stand as One.


I think that there was one such meeting held some years ago as reported by Coomaraswamy I believe. Don't know what came of it.

Let us pray for the unification of the Traditionalists, SVx and NonSVs. If not all at least some. Of course this would call for a lot of humility from the Bishops of both sides. Can we contact the Bishops to ask for this? I know no Traditional Bishop but if I did I would approach him and suggest it.


Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:59 pm
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
csibf wrote:
Let us pray for the unification of the Traditionalists, SVx and NonSVs.

That's what popes are for. Oh wait... :(

Let's think about this a little, for it is a wonderful thing.

The unity of the Church is a unity of faith and charity. "In order, then, that the episcopal office should be one and undivided and that, by the union of the clergy, the whole multitude of believers should be held together in the unity of faith and communion, he set blessed Peter over the rest of the apostles and instituted in him the permanent principle of both unities and their visible foundation." Vatican Council, First dogmatic constitution on the church of Christ.

The unity of traditional Catholics is therefore a unity produced and maintained by the actions of the true popes of the past, and is in no wise a result of the verbal submission of some of them to Benedict; indeed, insofar as some of them maintain this verbal submission to Benedict they endanger their unity with the Church, because if they were to permit Benedict to determine their faith or to decide who was in or out of the Church by judicial act (excommunication) or by supreme judgement, they would separate themselves from the unity of (true) faith or from the unity of charity of Catholics. Submission to Benedict is irrelevant otherwise.

So, we should pray for a pope, for it is the purpose and specific function of popes to produce (act as principle of), and to act as the visible foundation of, the twofold visible unity of the Church. Nothing else can repair or defend this unity. No amount of good will, no amount of holiness, no amount of discussion. These things can assist the unity of the Church not to deteriorate further, but they cannot repair it or add to it. Only a pope can do that.

When this crisis is closed, the world will stand in awe before the spectacle of the unity of the Church surviving the absence of the pope for forty or fifty years. Men will be struck by the miraculous power which can maintain such a stupendously difficult, nay impossible, thing as that a body of men could remain in one true faith and in one true charity despite the absence of the true principle and foundation of both unities, and despite the presence of a potent force - the false popes - directly aiming at dividing this body internally. The relative loss of unity during this period will testify to the reality that the pope is indeed the true principle and foundation of both unities, but the remaining fundamental unity will stand as irrefutable witness to the indefectibility of the Church resuting from its permanent submission to the Roman Pontificate, even when vacant.

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Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:23 pm
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
The following post on AQ may indicate how rome's strategy may work
against the SSPX and possibly do some serious damage:

Quote:
paenitentia
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 5

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:01 pm

The SSPX has no promise of infallibility; Rome does; the SSPX acknowledges as much. I am not with the SSPX because it is the "church;" rather, I attend because I have no otherwise access to the old mass. I appreciate the SSPX very much; especially its priests. But to be catholic -- each and everyone needs regularization with Rome. If the SSPX cannot accede to these straightforward propositions set forth by the Holy Father, then you are right about one thing, I will reevaluate my reasons for being with the SSPX. And I doubt I will be alone in that.


Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:42 am
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
At today's ordinations, Bishop de Galarreta has stated, with further details, that the answer from the SSPX is negative. See http://christus.imperat.over-blog.com/article-20791063.html


Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:16 am
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
Very interesting, John. His Emminence, Bishop de Galarreta, at least, has backbone enough to ignore Benny's histrionics. Good for him.

I especially found his quotations from St. Paul to be apropos.

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Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:47 am
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
Yes, the whole matter is interesting. It is hard to know exactly what to make of it. There are some things which seem clear enough, but others which seem very difficult to pin down. The actual motives of "rome" fit into this last category.

Is "rome" desperate, and therefore this move was a last gasp attempt to bully the SSPX into a deal, as I have said before? Or did "rome" give up on bringing in the SSPX and therefore decide to do all it can to destroy it as a significant force by dividing it internally? In the latter case, the five points in the letter would be seen, not as cleverly ambiguous rubrics which any sedeplenist might accept if in the right mood, but rather as deliberately vague and ominous ambiguity designed to be rejected by the SSPX and at the same time fuel for internecine traditionalist dissent.

At any rate, the most interesting stage begins now. What will "rome's" next move be, and once it is made (assuming an aggressive stand), how will the SSPX react?

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Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:14 pm
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
One possible explanation of the roman manœuvre has been advanced which makes sense to me. I don't say that it is true as it comes from an unreliable source, but things would fit together if it were true.

It is that Ratzinger is negotiating in parallel with the "traditionalist' Anglicans who want to join his sect while retaining Anglican liturgy, their wives, etc. and with the SSPX, and is very determined to maintain the parallel between them as he intends to set up a "personal prelature" status for each group in order to by-pass the diocesan bishops.

The interest from his point of in pretending that the two cases are parallel is of course the same as applied to the parallel beatification of Pius IX and John XXIII : those who dislike one of the two don't complain because the other serves as a palliative.

If this is the case, it constitutes an additional reason why Ratzinger blew his top at Fellay's highly predictable refusal to give up the one thing left which in the public eye differentiates his group from the "Motu" groups : the right to criticise Ratzi's heresies. Ratzi will have greater difficulty landing his Cranmerites without the counterweight of his Lefebvrites.


Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:42 pm
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
From a SSPX paper.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... nd-to.html

He [Fellay] rejects the procedure he is being subject to," Lorans said by telephone from the SSPX seminary in Econe, Switzerland. "If we want a canonical accord that doesn't collapse in a few weeks, we must deal with the fundamental questions of doctrine."

"In an ultimatum, which is an emergency procedure, these things should be explicit," Lorans said, adding that Fellay's letter to the Vatican on Thursday was confidential.

The letter was sent before the end of the month, as requested by the Vatican, but the spokesman added: "You can say he's not responding (to the ultimatum), despite answering it." The SSPX also had reservations about a requirement to fully accept the magisterium, or doctrinal authority of the Church.

Fellay "accepts to respect the pope and not take the place of the magisterium of the Church, except if there is something in the post-Council magisterium that is opposed to the magisterium of 2,000 years," Lorans said.


Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:34 pm
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
Well, if there were any doubt that this is a PR campaign, conducted by the Vatican without mercy or good will of any kind, this confirms it.

"Rome" has been told that its ultimatum is rejected. The heart of the ultimatum was that the SSPX cease criticising Vatican II and Ratzinger. This has been specifically rejected as in-principle impossible. But "rome's" response? Since the SSPX answer is confidential, it can be characterised how they like, and the most trouble they can cause is to characterise it as favourable, so that is what they have done.

If I were Bishop Fellay I'd now publish the Fraternity's reply.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/search ... ion%202008

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Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:16 pm
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
I have never been able to understand why the SSPX would bother to "play footsie" with that pack of slavering wolves in the "Vatican."

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Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:03 pm
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
Hmmm... Rorate Caeli has this posted which indicates that Bishop Fellay's reply
may not have been NO but left the door open. Well with the recent Transalpine Redemptorists reunion with the false church and the SSPX asking for removal of excommunications it seems the SSPX could still be in danger.

Quote:
Wednesday, July 02, 2008
Castrillón satisfied with SSPX answer
SSPX will give heed to the five points
From the blog of Andrea Tornielli (Vatican correspondent for Il Giornale):

I have learned from secure sources that, contrary to what has appeared in certain articles, the response of the Fraternity [of Saint Pius X - FSSPX/SSPX] to the letter of Cardinal Castrillón has not in fact been negative. The Cardinal is satisfied with it, has responded to Fellay, and has promptly delivered the letter of the Fraternity to Benedict XVI. After the deadline of the end of June, the Lefebvrists [sic] ask for time but - it seems - they will aim to respect the five points.

link: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/search ... ion%202008



Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:19 pm
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
oremus wrote:
Hmmm... Rorate Caeli has this posted which indicates that Bishop Fellay's reply may not have been NO but left the door open. Well with the recent Transalpine Redemptorists reunion with the false church and the SSPX asking for removal of excommunications it seems the SSPX could still be in danger.


You're falling right into the trap set by "rome" on this. Asking for the excommunications to be "lifted" is a good tactic for sedeplenists. It places "rome" under pressure to display some good will. "Rome" has lifted excommunications against real heretics and schismatics and yet is intransigent towards the SSPX only. Every time "rome" asks for "dialogue" the SSPX responds with, "Show some real good will first, and we'll talk - about doctrine." This is directly contrary to "rome's" agenda, which is to leave doctrine aside and use the apparent authority and prestige of Rome to force some kind of practical arrangement which will permit the suffocation of the SSPX a la the St. Peter's fraternity (especially, I suspect, the imposition of doubtfully valid orders...).

Your reaction is an object lesson in the process employed by "rome" to divide and conquer.

1. The Fraternity replies confidentially to "rome" apparently with mildness but without ambiguity on the central point - we won't be silenced on doctrinal error and sacred worship.

2. "Rome" thinks, "How can we generate the most pressure on the leadership of the SSPX, and divide traditional Catholics from each other? Ah, let's take the reply as a positive one." Why does this work? Because:
a) Nobody has read the reply, so they'll buy anything "rome" leaks, at least to begin with. "Rome's" used their current pipeline out to the world, Andrea Tornielli, and Rorate Caeli has, as usual, pushed it out to the English-speaking world. No doubt other languages are handled in the same way, informally and without clear traceability to "rome."
b) The SSPX leadership has stated unambiguously to the faithful that it rejects the demand for silence. This leaked misrepresentation will create doubt about their honesty.
c) The faithful generally don't grasp the crucial importance of doctrinal purity and will be more for "peace" than for continued war. The reaction of the faithful so far confirms this, and the additional reaction produced by this latest tactic will be in the same direction. That is, the faithful will be relieved to hear that the SSPX has not really rejected the ultimatum, and will expect that the SSPX leadership will be "nice" to "rome" now. Any failure to meet this new higher expectation of "niceness" will disappoint the faithful, separating them from the SSPX to some degree.
d) The faithful who do grasp the gravity of the situation will either doubt the SSPX leadership's honesty, as stated above, or at least vex themselves that the SSPX leadership might be in the process of being drawn into a catastrophic "deal" with "rome." Either subtracts from peace and potentially adds to disunity.
e) The Fraternity must now decide whether to let the criminals get away with this ploy and wait in patience for the next significant point of action to arrive, whatever that is, or to react by explaining the SSPX's true position on the ultimatum, a most delicate task pregnant with innumerable opportunities for deliberate and accidental misunderstanding, and in any case adding some fuel to the fire.

3. You read Rorate Caeli and take it at face value. No doubt most people do likewise. Hoyos and Ratzinger nod pleasantly and complacently and think about their next chess moves. Bishop Fellay suffers.

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Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:49 am
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
John,

Actually I do not regard Rorate Caeli as being accurate otherwise they would have an open debate about the status of Ratzinger. But as you note many people do
pay attention to their website. When playing chess with "rome" they have the
upper hand because there is only one king(pope) on their chessboard seen by the public and the enemy of Tradition has thus far used the papacy to checkmate any opposition. Even the Sedevacantists are looked at as "wacko" by Catholics who do not know their Catholic Faith including doctrine.

Ratzinger may not last much longer his health is not that good and perhaps he wants to pull the SSPX into the false "rome" before he passes out of this world.


Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:32 am
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New post Re: SSPX confirms existence of Rome's Offer
oremus wrote:
When playing chess with "rome" they have the upper hand because there is only one king(pope) on their chessboard seen by the public and the enemy of Tradition has thus far used the papacy to checkmate any opposition.


That's right. We should state, in season and out of season, that the entire success of this revolution is owed to the prestige and apparent authority of the papacy. This manifest fact is like the elephant in the living room to many. It's almost too big and obvious to regard with any interest.

And in its own unique way, it proves the divinity of the Church. If her unity can survive this, it can survive anything, and it is surviving this. Not just in one little sect in one little city somewhere where there's a clever rhetorician and a few innocents without guile, either. No, the Church survives worldwide, one in faith, and communion, and worship, amongst myriad different circumstances and peoples, despite her lack of a visible head and the presence of a false one constantly assaulting her unity, and despite all the little sectarians, like pirahna, nipping away at her, taking pieces out, but never able to rend the seamless robe.

She is the wonder of the ages.

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Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:23 pm
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