It is currently Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:28 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
 Prayers for a murdered priest. 
Author Message

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:31 am
Posts: 706
Location: Moscow, Idaho, U.S.A.
New post Prayers for a murdered priest.
I am not sure this belongs in this section, but I have been advised by a Catholic friend in Moscow, Russia that a friend of hers, a holy old Russian Orthodox priest, a true Confessor of the Faith who had been held by the Communists because of his Faith for a number of years, has been murdered yesterday. My friend says the murderer was either insane, a satanist, or both. She asks our prayers for his soul. I told her that I am not sure that he needs them, but would honor her request.

_________________
Kenneth G. Gordon


Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:28 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:31 am
Posts: 706
Location: Moscow, Idaho, U.S.A.
New post Re: Prayers for a murdered priest.
By the way, the priest's name was Fr. Pavel Adelgeim. For those who don't know, "Pavel" is the Russian equivalent of "Paul".

_________________
Kenneth G. Gordon


Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:12 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:11 pm
Posts: 28
New post Re: Prayers for a murdered priest.
Ken Gordon wrote:
By the way, the priest's name was Fr. Pavel Adelgeim. For those who don't know, "Pavel" is the Russian equivalent of "Paul".


Dear Ken,

Please do not take this post as a petty criticism, but is this the same priest mentioned in the first article?

http://www.news.com.au/world-news/pro-p ... 6692432964

http://www.pravmir.com/pskov-court-deta ... wo-months/

Also, is it proper to consider an Orthodox priest a "confessor of the Faith?"

Nevertheless, he still needs our prayers.


Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:18 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:31 am
Posts: 706
Location: Moscow, Idaho, U.S.A.
New post Re: Prayers for a murdered priest.
obscurus wrote:
Ken Gordon wrote:
By the way, the priest's name was Fr. Pavel Adelgeim. For those who don't know, "Pavel" is the Russian equivalent of "Paul".

Dear Ken,
Please do not take this post as a petty criticism,

I don't.

obscurus wrote:
but is this the same priest mentioned in the first article?

http://www.news.com.au/world-news/pro-p ... 6692432964

Looks like it, doesn't it? I cannot say anything good about the music group, though. Perhaps he had a reason for his support that we are not privy too.

obscurus wrote:
http://www.pravmir.com/pskov-court-detains-man-suspected-of-killing-priest-pavel-adelgeim-for-two-months/

Also, is it proper to consider an Orthodox priest a "confessor of the Faith?"

I would not normally have thought so a few years ago. However, reading the book, "Russia's Catacomb Saints" by Dr. Ivan Alexseyeev (which is extremely hard to find now) changed my mind a bit. Furthermore, we have the personal testimony of Archbishop Arrigo Pintonello who was a chaplain in the Italian Army when it was in Russia during WWII for further corroboration of what I say above. Lastly, it is well known that at least one Russian Orthodox Metropolitan (holding the same office as a Roman Bishop) converted to the Catholic Faith, yet was allowed by the Vatican prior to Pius XII to keep that fact secret and continue to minister to his people as he always had.

In the case of Abp. Pintonello, in a letter to us and in an article written for an Italian newspaper, he states flatly that the Russian Orthodox people he met in Bellarus considered themselves Catholics and understood no difference at all between their Faith and the Roman Faith. He details offering one of his first Masses in Bellarus during the drive into Russia by the combined German and Italian Armies, when he turned around for a Dominus Vobiscum early in the Mass, he discovered that the congregation was at least twice the size it was when he walked up the aisle to begin Mass, and most of the excess were Russians. Furthermore, they asked him to please bury their dead in consecrated ground. After consulting with his superior, he was advised to not refuse. As I understand it, he and the other chaplains ministered to the Russians from then on as though they were simply Catholics.

Lastly, in Dr. Alexseyeev's book, in the middle section which is devoted to the various Martyrs under the Communists, it was abundantly clear that these people saw no difference between their Faith and that of Rome, and suffered accordingly. An incident with some Russian Orthodox nuns is especially interesting and consoling. Because they absolutely refused to do any work for "the communist antichrist" they were severely beaten, and finally were put out on the steppe in the middle of one of the harshest winters of the century, with only their summer clothing to cover themselves. They were purposely refused winter coats, gloves and hats. It was at least -40 degrees F. That is 40 degrees below zero and the wind was blowing. Everyone expected them to be frozen solid the next morning, but at dawn, the camp guards heard them singing the morning office. They were all perfectly all right. It got so difficult for the guards to deal with them that finally not one of them would even touch the nuns despite repeated orders and beatings by their superiors. They lived there in peace, using the prison camp as a nunnery, maintaining their daily religious duties, until they were finally released several years later. It is a most unusual story.

In the first section of the book, the very clear distinction between that section of the Russian Orthodox Church which made an accommodation with the Communists, and that section which refused to do so and was horribly persecuted for it is detailed. The former were called "Sergianists" after the Metropolitan Sergius who went along with the Reds. That section is the part of the Russian Orthodox Church that is presently in power. Fr. Adelgeim was part of the conservative section, regarded by most Russian Orthodox people as the true Church, and which would have absolutely nothing to do with the Reds, nor with the Sergianists.

Lastly, in a very recent on-line blog put out by the ROC in the U.S., a quotation from someone they regard as a saint who died prior to recent times says, (I am somewhat paraphrasing) "....the Greeks will leave us, as they were never really part of us anyway...", which I thought was interesting.

So, in answer to your question, "Yes" I think it is completely appropriate to call him a confessor of the faith. He lost a leg in prison camp due to his holding to his faith, and he appears to have been murdered for the same reason.

obscurus wrote:
Nevertheless, he still needs our prayers.


Indeed.

_________________
Kenneth G. Gordon


Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:07 am
Profile E-mail

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:31 am
Posts: 706
Location: Moscow, Idaho, U.S.A.
New post Re: Prayers for a murdered priest.
Concerning the subject of Russia vis-a-vis the Church: according to many Catholic prophecies, going way back, the "...restoration of the Church will come out of 'the north'", which at the time, meant, out of Russia. This is all very mysterious, and one cannot draw accurate conclusions, of course, from any prophecy until, often, long after the events prophesied occur, but we can at least keep a "wary eye out" for happenings.

One other thing, of course, that makes prophecy so difficult to interpret is that, most often, it describes multiple related events over a long span of time.

Our Lady's prophecy that Russia would spread her errors throughout the world has bearing on this too. The importance of Russia is apparent.

In the book, "Russia's Catacomb Saints", there were several very interesting incidents, recorded by the author accompanied with no comments. The fact that he didn't comment intrigued me possibly more than the incidents themselves.

These were that several times, when Orthodox Priests and Bishops were in extreme danger of being picked up by the Communists and jailed or sent to the Gulag, a Catholic Priest would show up completely unannounced and unexpected, and they would spirit the endangered one off to safety. The Catholic Priest would then disappear. Who ever these priests were, were never named. Furthermore, there would often be Catholic lay persons involved, again unnamed.

_________________
Kenneth G. Gordon


Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:12 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:11 pm
Posts: 28
New post Re: Prayers for a murdered priest.
Ken,

Thank you very much for your response and research! As a convert from Orthodoxy myself, these issues are quite fascinating to me. I am still trying to wrap my head around certain theological issues regarding the Orthodox.

This is not really a question addressed to you but rather to anyone, but how has the Catholic Church traditionally viewed the Orthodox?


Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:56 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:31 am
Posts: 706
Location: Moscow, Idaho, U.S.A.
New post Re: Prayers for a murdered priest.
obscurus wrote:
This is not really a question addressed to you but rather to anyone, but how has the Catholic Church traditionally viewed the Orthodox?

As I remember it, it depends on WHICH "Orthodox" we are talking about.

For instance, I was always taught that the Greeks, for instance, had valid orders and sacraments, but were schismatics. We were also taught that schism almost always leads to heresy at some point in their history. In fact, Canon Law specifically mentions that in time of emergency (usually death or extreme danger of death) a Roman Catholic may approach an Orthodox priest for the sacraments. Nonetheless, this was rarely done.

It became clear to me some time ago that, in many cases, what determined whether a particular Greek church remained in union with Rome or not depended, first, on the pastor at that particular Church, and less often also on the congregation.

By the way, we who know better do not call the non-Roman Rite Catholics "Uniates". To them, it is more than a little insulting. They regard themselves as simply Catholics. We lived next door to some Armenian Rite Catholics when I was growing up. When their priest died, and they had no way to get another Armenian Rite Priest, their Bishop told them to go to the Roman Rite churches...which they did. They attended the same Parish and Parochial School as I and my brothers and sister did.

As far as the Russian Orthodox church is concerned, I know very little except what I wrote earlier. However, I DO know that very often the upper hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox Church was primarily responsible for the periodic persecutions of Catholics in Russia before the Communists took over. At least one of the Czar's (I have forgotten which one) was ready to publicly join the Catholic Church when he was prevented by the ROC hierarchy who raised a storm of protest about it. The issue, as I remember it, wasn't so much about doctrine as about power, politics, and congregations.

I don't know if I have mentioned this incident, but the Russian lady who has helped our son in Russia told us that her Mother and Grandmother would sometimes receive Communion twice a day, once in the Orthodox church, and once in the Catholic Church until they were forbidden to do so by the Orthodox priest. The two ladies saw no difference between the two faiths, and had no idea they were not to receive the Eucharist twice in one day. As an aside, about 30 years ago, when I was at St. Mary's in Kansas, just before I and my wife were married, I discovered two young children, a young boy and his sister, who were receiving Communion as many as three times per day, doing so at every Mass they attended, and they went to Mass as often as they could. They simply didn't know any better. The priest there. Fr. Hector Bolduc, kindly told them they shouldn't do that and they stopped. They were good kids.

_________________
Kenneth G. Gordon


Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:28 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:31 am
Posts: 706
Location: Moscow, Idaho, U.S.A.
New post Re: Prayers for a murdered priest.
I want to add that as far as I have been able to determine, the biggest doctrinal issue with at least SOME Orthodox has to do with the place of the Holy Ghost in the Trinity. Some, at least, of the Orthodox consider Him to be less than either the Father or the Son, which to me is rather odd.

After all, all of the Orthodox, as far as I know, make the same sign of the Cross as we do, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost", thereby stating that "they" are all Equal and One.

I have never understood this.

The Greeks, especially, seem to have a problem in this regard: for instance, their big issue with the "Filoque" in the Creed.

_________________
Kenneth G. Gordon


Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:35 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:11 pm
Posts: 28
New post Re: Prayers for a murdered priest.
Ken Gordon wrote:
I want to add that as far as I have been able to determine, the biggest doctrinal issue with at least SOME Orthodox has to do with the place of the Holy Ghost in the Trinity. Some, at least, of the Orthodox consider Him to be less than either the Father or the Son, which to me is rather odd.

After all, all of the Orthodox, as far as I know, make the same sign of the Cross as we do, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost", thereby stating that "they" are all Equal and One.

I have never understood this.

The Greeks, especially, seem to have a problem in this regard: for instance, their big issue with the "Filoque" in the Creed.


Yes, that is a big issue with the Greeks and other autocephalous churches. They would state that the Pope had no right to insert the "Filioque" into the Creed. Of course, there are historical and political reasons why the Greeks and other bodies would separate themselves from the Catholic Church. The history is rather complicated and messy.


Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:52 pm
Profile E-mail

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:31 am
Posts: 706
Location: Moscow, Idaho, U.S.A.
New post Re: Prayers for a murdered priest.
obscurus wrote:
Yes, that is a big issue with the Greeks and other autocephalous churches. They would state that the Pope had no right to insert the "Filioque" into the Creed.

Which fact also makes it clear that those churches do not agree with the likes of us who regard the Pope as something other than just another Bishop with power only equal to that of any other Bishop. I believe this "understanding" on their part is actually heretical. I also view this incorrect understanding of the true position and authority over all Christians of the Pope to be the biggest problem between those autocephalous churches and the True Church. I have always regarded the issue of the Holy Ghost to be nothing more than what I would call a "smoke screen" for the main issue. If they, or some of them, would submit to a True Pope, then all else would be easily resolved.

obscurus wrote:
Of course, there are historical and political reasons why the Greeks and other bodies would separate themselves from the Catholic Church. The history is rather complicated and messy.

From my reading, I most certainly agree with you. I have often wondered what, exactly, was Michael Celularius' true intention in causing such a division. In my view, he caused incredible problems out of pure pride...but on the other hand, one very nice thing about being a Catholic is that we are not required to judge. :lol:

_________________
Kenneth G. Gordon


Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:50 pm
Profile E-mail
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forums/DivisionCore.