In order to properly advise someone else who is tussling with some Protestants, I need a definitive definition of "invincible ignorance".

To me, and from what I have read, although real invincible ignorance is certainly possible, given man's propensity toward things other than God, I also believe it is actually very rare in today's society, and that those who might be defined as "invincibly ignorant" by some, are actually, and most often, guilty of sin by not accepting the truth when it is properly presented to them.

After all, although we must follow our consciences, those consciences must be properly formed.

Your comments, please?

Invincible = unable to be defeated. Invincible ignorance exists when the man is unable to be informed of the truth. St. Thomas, in order to make clear the meaning of the concept, uses the example of the man raised by wolves in the forest, a man completely cut off from human society.

The debate about whether men who live in countries where the Church is established can ever truly be described as invincibly ignorant is an open one, tolerated by the Church. Men as opposed to modern errors as Cardinal Manning are on record saying that perhaps most Anglicans (in his day) were invincibly ignorant. I am not convinced by that view, but it's not something we can censure, because the Church didn't.

The important thing is that there isn't any salvation outside the Church, and the only way we may have any confidence that we are in the Church is by actual membership. Ergo, missionary zeal.

I am most assuredly not convinced of that view either. I have tried, repeatedly to inform various people of the truths of many aspects of our Faith, and they simply will not hear them. I repeat: WILL NOT. I have another friend, a convert, who insists that no one truly converts wholeheartedly to the Catholic Faith without there being a direct miracle from God to assist, especially now-a-days. I am not sure I agree with him, but he certainly has a point.

On the other hand, perhaps my methods leave a lot (!) to be desired. I must confess to being highly irritated at what I regard as the general stupidity and arrogance of non-Catholics, and I am sure that attitude comes through our interactions. And this includes convinced NovusOrdo-ites, who are simply another non-Catholic sect...like my own sister...


Exactly. However, being a "missionary" these days is extremely difficult: to whom do we send our subjects? We have almost no priests, and many of those we do know have a minimum of that necessary zeal. Most are fighting as hard as they can to simply exist and to provide for the remnant faithful.

I have gotten embroiled in a "discussion" with some whom I would term "protty dogs", thus my request concerning invincible ignorance.

I have always been seriously annoyed by those who WILL NOT hear or see the truth, but I find fanatical Protestants to be almost unbearable to deal with in this regard.

So, my question, from a non-Catholic's perspective: what importance should we ascribe to the graces given us by God to see and/or accept the truth when it is presented to us? Mustn't we first, at least, begin to question the accuracy and fullness of our past "certain knowledge" before God will give us the grace to proceed towards the truth? Does the first step towards the truth and away from the wrong knowledge we may have learned from childhood come from God, or are we not required to actively look for the truth before God will help us? Must we expect to have the truth presented to us before we must act?

I am not sure whether I should be as hard as I am on those who are ignorant of our Holy Faith, believing all manner of half-truths, and downright lies about It, but at this point, tonight, I am thoroughly angry with these folks with whom I am presently dealing. I would love to simply wring their blasted necks.

Ken, I understand the frustration, but we don't convert people, we merely remove obstacles. Grace converts them - including giving them initial doubts about their own position, I presume.

So we can only do our best, and success or otherwise is in the hands of God. Which is very consoling, given the hopelessness of the current situation!

Well, after dealing with these boneheads over the past few days, I am becoming more and more convinced of my convert-friend's insistence that no one is truly converted to Catholicism (especially now-a-days) without a direct miracle in their favor from God.

Although I used to find that difficult to believe, talking with these fools is almost identical to talking to a really stupid brick wall.

To say that I am annoyed by them at present would be a major understatement.

It is very difficult to maintain one's sense of charity in the face of such idiocy. And it is very hard for me to believe it isn't malicious.